D&D 5E Changes in Interpretation

Hussar

Legend
Depends on the tier. +4 levels is probably lethal in heroic. It's quite doable in Paragon. It's a trivial challenge in Epic.

(Of course there's the argument that Epic 4E requires a DM to completely rethink the entire mentality of how D&D works in every respect and cannot be treated like level 1-20 play, and that's fair).

I'm not really sure about 4e to be honest. I don't have enough experience DMing it to be able to have a strong opinion one way or another.

OTOH, I am pretty darn sure that if I bomb a CR 9 creature on a 5th level 3e party, I'm going to be looking at a lot of character death. When the baddie's average damage is enough to kill a PC, and it pretty much never misses, it should be whacking PC's.
 

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Steely_Dan

First Post
I'm not really sure about 4e to be honest. I don't have enough experience DMing it to be able to have a strong opinion one way or another.

I do, fluctuate a few too many levels, and the whole thing goes out of whack, removing the 1/2 level bonus from all character's and monster's Attacks, Defences, and Skills really helps.
 

pemerton

Legend
Depends on the tier. +4 levels is probably lethal in heroic. It's quite doable in Paragon. It's a trivial challenge in Epic.
I'm not really sure about 4e to be honest. I don't have enough experience DMing it to be able to have a strong opinion one way or another.
I recently ran an encounter for my 17th level, no-Expertise feats party, with two level 22 death giants (damage upped to MM3 standards) and a 17th level Eidolon (again, appropriately MM3-ed). According to the XP this a level 18 encounter and it played like that, ie pretty straightforward for the PCs. The comparatively high defences of the giants showed a bit, but that was a deliberate choice I'd made in designing the encounter.

Of course there's the argument that Epic 4E requires a DM to completely rethink the entire mentality of how D&D works in every respect and cannot be treated like level 1-20 play, and that's fair
Can you elaborate? My PCs have just reached 18th level, so I'm expecting to go Epic by the end of the year.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I wonder if people understand the very real differences between task-based resolution and conflict-based resolution in 4e. I see people post things that seem very divorced from my reading of the rules texts, my understanding of them, and my in-play dynamics.
I also share your curiosity and experience the same dissonance between my own experience and what others describe or attribute to the rulebooks.

The above is, of course, related to exercises in Task Resolution. When invoking Skill Challenge mechanics, the rules work the same way but there is a subtle, key difference in DM considerations. The Conflict Resolution structure of the Skill Challenge presupposes that the Conflict being Resolved is an actual challenge

<snip>

Meta-game consideration should dictate Skill Challenge DCs as they should be roughly bounded to PC's level for it to be both a challenge and to induce the tension of the specter of failure as a possible outcome.

<snip>

You are "scene-building" and thus the "task-resolution" DCs and outcomes MUST be meta-gamed and decoupled from linear cause-and-effect.
I think there are some mechanical infelicities here, though, which I have experienced in play, and which the rules could do more to help with.

Consider the DC to see through a hag's disguise using Insight. This is set high enough (generally, Hard DC of the hag's level +5) to provide a real challenge to task resolution. Which is fine. But won't work if incorporated into a skill challenge (too high! it will muck up the maths).

Bluff DCs are similar - work well for opposed checks in task resolution, too high for skill challenges.

The solution that I use is to use skill challenge appropriate DCs, and require multiple successful checks before the full details (of the lie, of the hag's identity, etc) come out in the course of resolution.

But I can see how this sort of thing, which the rules don't really deal with at all, can cause some confusion and/or dislike of the system.
 

<snip>

Consider the DC to see through a hag's disguise using Insight. This is set high enough (generally, Hard DC of the hag's level +5) to provide a real challenge to task resolution. Which is fine. But won't work if incorporated into a skill challenge (too high! it will muck up the maths).

Bluff DCs are similar - work well for opposed checks in task resolution, too high for skill challenges.

The solution that I use is to use skill challenge appropriate DCs, and require multiple successful checks before the full details (of the lie, of the hag's identity, etc) come out in the course of resolution.

But I can see how this sort of thing, which the rules don't really deal with at all, can cause some confusion and/or dislike of the system.

I have never run a social Skill Challenge with a hag, but I think that is a classic trope that would be well serviced by the Skill Challenge resolution system. If I ever do run one, I would assuredly do the same thing as you describe as it is standard operating procedure for a Skill Challenge.

I have run a ruthless, Jack Bowersesque, interrogation Skill Challenge whereby two PCs attempt to secure mandatory information regarding an imminent terrorist plot (poisoning the nobility district's water supply with a deadly toxin) from an otherwise unwilling target. Naturally Bluff and Insight were heavily involved and I used Skill Challenge appropriate DCs to resolve it. Its a very intuitive process once you understand the (relatively) outcome-based simulation of Skill Challenges versus the (relatively) process-based simulation of mundane task resolution.

Its very relevant to Hussar's topic. Although the 4e rules texts are quite thorough in many respects and, as a whole, the product is exceedingly coherent, there are "holes in its game" whereby the authors and editors did not conceptualize how their lack of bridging of logic (just expecting it to be intuitive and therefore no need to be made explicit) would affect the polish of their final product. In editions predating 3e, it was expected that players would infill the authors/editors lack of explicit bridging of logic with their conceptualized understanding of the rules texts (the marriage of RAI with RAW). However, we no longer grok this responsibility as the mental fog of a subtle paradigm shift (which Hussar outlines in his initial post) - "fidelity to the orthodox of the anointed texts" - has become cultural mainstay over the course of the last two editions. That being said, I hope I've made it abundantly clear at this point that I favor coherent, transparent, thorough rules texts over incoherent, relatively opaque, shallow rules texts. However, what I do hold as true is that if rules texts conveyed a schematic of each subtle (intuitive?) "logical transition" (Skill Challenge metagame, level-appropriate, DC design over-rules mundane, non-level-centric, task resolution DC standards), then word count and page count would increase dramatically...and I suspect that rules texts would start reading like my posts with a thousand and one caveats and clarifiers embedded within (driving the gaming community at-large to madness).

With that caveat on top of another caveat...I have one more caveat. I do have issues with the coherency of some of the designers' rules text (and its likely, poor manipulation by its editors). I've stated as such in a few posts here and there. If there is one thing I hope for in the next edition (if I choose to partake) is that the designers' intentions are coherent/clear and that, after editing, they are allowed to go back through the books again to make sure their message (to make sure important "logical transitions" are still well-represented, and are not outright omitted, in the edited version), was not pruned too much to the point that the rules text move from coherent to relatively incoherent (with respect to their iteration prior to editing). Too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup. If players must bear to much of the burden of conceptualization of RAI from RAW, if long term gamers end up with too many exchanges over RAW, it means that RAI (logical transitions) was not clear enough in concept.
 

- Some factions are worried about page count generally so as to keep the rules texts' costs down.
- Some factions are worried about page count per topic specifically (so their favored sections are given their relative due).
- Some factions are worried about rules texts' prose being coherent, concise, transparent and explicit enough so that all tables play generally the same and so it is impossible to confuse RAW and RAI.
- Some factions are worred about rules texts' prose being too explicit, too gamey, too much like an engineering-grade manual (and not enough purple prose-y), so that reading the books becomes less of "an adventure" unto itself and so that each table cannot "make the game their own".

Pleasing all 4 of these groups, with often mutually exclusive interests, is going to be a neat trick.
 

I recently ran an encounter for my 17th level, no-Expertise feats party, with two level 22 death giants (damage upped to MM3 standards) and a 17th level Eidolon (again, appropriately MM3-ed). According to the XP this a level 18 encounter and it played like that, ie pretty straightforward for the PCs. The comparatively high defences of the giants showed a bit, but that was a deliberate choice I'd made in designing the encounter.

I've done the same. My recent climactic battle involved the party against an invading ogre army. In the showdown it was the PCs and a handful of minions defending an Invoker's temple against a dozen ogres. (Seriously, if an Invoker of Erathis is in residence and the signs say keep off the grass, then keep off the grass*.) Defending PCs: 6 level 7s including the Invoker, four strikers, and a Warlord, a dozen or so minions, and defensive terrain. Invaders: a dozen ogres ranging from level 6 to a level 11 elite skirmisher and a level 14 plate armoured soldier. Yeah, the plate armoured soldier was tough. But the whole thing worked well. All minions and Invoker dead, and all PCs at least bloodied and with no remaining way to spend surges. One ogre survived to flee.

Can you elaborate? My PCs have just reached 18th level, so I'm expecting to go Epic by the end of the year.

The basic problem is that 4e Epic is more of the same.

* Five damage and combat advantage unless you're the BBEG when you just leave firey footprints. Rough on the ogres when the paths had defensive emplacements. And one of the strikers was a thief, backed up by a warlord.
 

pemerton

Legend
The basic problem is that 4e Epic is more of the same.
That's fine - I can up the fictional stakes while holding action resolution constant.

But I got pretty much the opposite impression from [MENTION=6684526]GreyICE[/MENTION], namely, that I will have to rethink how D&D works. Maybe I misinterpreted?
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
- Some factions are worried about page count generally so as to keep the rules texts' costs down.
- Some factions are worried about page count per topic specifically (so their favored sections are given their relative due).
these two are really just about sharing and compromise

- Some factions are worried about rules texts' prose being coherent, concise, transparent and explicit enough so that all tables play generally the same and so it is impossible to confuse RAW and RAI.
- Some factions are worred about rules texts' prose being too explicit, too gamey, too much like an engineering-grade manual (and not enough purple prose-y), so that reading the books becomes less of "an adventure" unto itself and so that each table cannot "make the game their own".
These are major issues. I've suggested a stat block + flavorful description. DMs that want to do outcome based campaigns just use the stat block and feel free to ignore or reflavor the description. Those who prefer flavor to be the ultimate influence can have the DM adjudicate what is said in the description. For the common cases that stat block is still useful to the latter crowd as a quick reference.
 

these two are really just about sharing and compromise

I was thinking more along the lines of:

- The demand for full explication of all nuance, all implied logical transition or bridge, or what some may find intuitive (while others find obscure) by necessity dictates that word/page count increases.

- If word/page count increases due to intense expounding upon rule application and 100 % circumnavigation of nuance, then cost of books increases in proportion to that page count/text proliferation.

- If word/page count is a zero sum game (in order to keep book size/cost down) and the proportion of page count spent on explication, expounding, circumnavigation (for the interest of clarity and to make all things considered explicit that would have been implicit instead such that RAI and RAW are coupled unmistakably) increases then, by necessity, the proportion of page count allotted to fluff/other will be decreased.

But yes, I do agree its about compromise. Pretty much the entire endeavor is about compromise to one degree or another.
 

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