Changes in MM creatures - why?

[Quasqueton]

Remember the thread about how much the pit fiend had changed? How some people were surprised and concerned by the extent of possible monster changes. But other people said all the surprise and concern was foolishness. "They're just showing us the monsters that have had major changes, probably most monsters won't be any different in 3.5."

Well, behold the 3.5 "stock" orc:

HD: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Speed: 30'
AC 13 (+3 studded leather armor)
Attack: Falchion +4 (2d4+4/18-20, x2)
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 7, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +1, Spot +1

Compare the 3.0 "stock" orc:

HD: 1d8 (4 hp)
Speed: 20'
AC: 14 (+4 scale mail)
Attack: Greataxe +3 (1d12+3/20,x3)
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +0, Will -1
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2


Some changes were necessary to make the supposedly Warrior orc rules compliant. The skill change was the only such thing in this case. All the other changes are unnecessary and just aggravating.

Why was the "non-elite" array of ability scores added to the otherwise easily understandable listing for ability scores? The average/standard 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 array was easy to understand, and easy for a DM to adjust if necessary.

Why did they change the armor of the stock orc? Was there a problem with scalemail? The orc in the illustration right beside the stack block wears scalemail.

Why did they change the weapon of the stock orc? Was there a problem with the greataxe? The orc in the illustration right beside the stat block weilds a greataxe. And the description of orcs say they use weapons that deal the most damage in the shortest amount of time. That would be a greataxe or a greatsword, not a falchion.

Saves are changed because the ability scores changed.


Now, I understand the need to adjust some creatures like the supposedly high-powered demons and devils that didn't really meet their CR and game niches. (But I still think they went way too far with those changes.) I understand the need to make sure all the monsters actually follow the same rules for skills and feats and such.

But look at how much the base, common, low-power creatures have changed. The orc above is but one example of all the standard humaonids. Goblins have gone from the old days of 1d8-1 hit dice to now 1d8+1 hit die! All the humanoid creatures have negative Charisma modifiers (because of how the non-elite array of ability score points was alocated). I understood that kobolds were going to be adjusted up to a full hit die (with a low Con) rather than the 1/2 hit die they had in 3.0 (a needed change to fit them within the standard rules), but now because of the non-elite array of ability score points, kobolds have overcome their main weakness.

These changes just stink. No longer are the Monster Manual humanoids examples of their base, stock, average species. The addition of the non-elite ability score array is the worst thing the revision designers did. Completely unnecessary, complicates a quick eyeballing of the stats, and sours me to an otherwise great revision. And then they make gear changes to the creatures on top of it. Again completely unnecessary.

I would have thought, of all creatures in the MM, the orc would have gotten only one change: skills - to fit and follow the standard rules. But now we have a completely different creature.

Stupid revisions.

Quasqueton

 

[Thorntangle]

Probably swapped weapons because a greataxe can easily take a character with several levels to -10 in one lucky shot. Falchions have a greater crit range, but, of course, weaker damage.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Actually, the falchion isn't such a bad "traditional" orc choice, and I mean traditional in the Tolkien sense. It can represent a large, cleaver-like blade. Coincidentally, I just statted up some orcs tonight and gave them falchions for that reason, not realising that the weapon had "officially" changed in the 3.5 MM.

Cheers
D

 

[Eternalknight]

E-tools is a very expensive coffee coaster and/or small frisbee... and that's about it.

Does anyone else find it amazing that the 3E E-tools is SOOOOO bad compared with 2E Core Rules when the 3E ruleset is, arguably, several times easier to program because it is so much more logical than 2E?

Cheers
D

Wrong thread?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Probably swapped weapons because a greataxe can easily take a character with several levels to -10 in one lucky shot. Falchions have a greater crit range, but, of course, weaker damage.

Dead on the money as noted by WoTC, same reason the armor went dow nas well so that players can fight more than one at a time.

 

[arwink]

As someone whose orcs have been wearing studded leather and carrying flachions since 3.0 started, let me just say "Woohoo."

One less altered monster in my "Homebrew Standard" file

 

[Christian]

You know, I find this particular example really hard to get worked up about. They didn't change the stat adjustments for the creature type, the core abilities, or anything else. They just made the archetype figure one that wore different armor, carried a different weapon, and had slightly above-average and below average (rather than flat-average in all cases) stats. This in no way invalidates any particular orc listed in any particular adventure-a given orc could perfectly well have exactly average stats, wear scale mail, and wield a greataxe. And unless you had slavishly followed the archetype before (did all of your world's orcs have exactly average stats, wear scale mail, and wield greataxes?), it's a completely irrelevant change.

 

[Quasqueton]

Note that now, with the non-elite array of ability scores, the stock orc is now stronger than a stock gnoll and bugbear.

Someone explain why the new non-elite array was necessary. Or how it's inclusion helps the game or a DM.

Orcs used to be known (in 3.0) as the sword fodder with a respectable (and feared) punch. Now their damage is "normal", and at odds with the very description given in their MM listing.

And speaking of gnolls and bugbears:

Gnolls now have dropped their scalemail for leather armor.

Bugbears now have scent.

Quasqueton

 

[hong]

Note that now, with the non-elite array of ability scores, the stock orc is now stronger than a stock gnoll and bugbear.

Someone explain why the new non-elite array was necessary. Or how it's inclusion helps the game or a DM.

Orcs used to be known (in 3.0) as the sword fodder with a respectable (and feared) punch. Now their damage is "normal", and at odds with the very description given in their MM listing.

And speaking of gnolls and bugbears:

Gnolls now have dropped their scalemail for leather armor.

Bugbears now have scent.

Quasqueton

I might mention here that orcs IMC can have stats all over the place, with Str ranging from 14 to 18, weapons ranging from falchions, scimitars and maces to greataxes and greatswords, and armour ranging from hide to chainmail. Sometimes they'll have Weapon Focus, other times they'll have Alertness, and still other times they'll have Toughness. And these are basic grunts. The levelled boss orcs are even more variable. Some of them can even be sorcerers, racial penalty to Cha notwithstanding.

OH NO, I MADE QUASQUETON'S HEAD EXPLODIATE.

How on earth do you deal with PCs who don't fit the cleric/wizard/fighter/rogue setup, if you can't handle this level of variation in monster stats?

 

[hong]

did all of your world's orcs have exactly average stats, wear scale mail, and wield greataxes?

Someone turn that damn replicator off already.