Changes needed to make the role model work

[Anthtriel]

One thing that come to my mind recently:
(Assuming Warlocks will be Controllers, which seems pretty likely by now):
In 4E, a group consisting of a Fighter, a Warlord, a Ranger and a Warlock will, if we can believe the designers, work just as well as a traditional group consisting of a Fighter, a Cleric, a Rogue and a Wizard.

This implies a few changes that have not been stated, if I'm not mistaken:
1. A group can function without a Rogue, so Trapfinding needs to be available to at least all strikers, if not even more characters.
2. A group can function without a Cleric, so debiliating status effects, like petrify, long duration stun, and even instant death on high levels, either need to very avoidable, or need to be curable by all Leaders (including the Warlord, who probably cannot cast).
Instant petrify in particular will probably need to go out of the window.
3. A group can function without a Cleric and a Wizard, so either Warlocks can cast all the important utility spells (like see invisible, fly, scrying, divination, and so on), or those will not be required.

If there will ever be a Martial Controller, then we might have a situation in which a group is supposed to function perfectly without any kind of magic at all.
Do you think it will work? Coming from 3E (otherwise known as Magic under every doorstep), I actually have problems believing it will work, and that Warlods will really be able to completely replace Clerics.

 

[.:avatar:.]

I'll assume you meant that "that WarlorDs will really be able to completely replace Clerics".. great, we're confusing those Warlock and Warlords even before 4e gets out

I find your speculation quite logic, even if I think that 4e powers and 3e magic will have about the same potential... thus reducing need of spells such as "detect invisibility" with powers (such as "eye of the predatory tiger"? XD )

About party members... what if a balanced party will need not only a member of each role, but also of each power source?

maybe a group composed of ranger, paladin, warlord and warlock could work perfectly even without the two main caster class, thanks to the fact that paladin is a divine defender and warlock (90%) an arcane controller.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[XCorvis]

Deciding whether or not a particular class can fill their roll effectively is going to have to wait until we see more info the class abilities. Right now all we know about most of them is what their 3E counterparts do, which I'm sure is going to be radically different in many ways.


As for your particular points, I respond with pure speculation.
1. Trapfinding was ridiculous, and I'm 90% sure it's gone. I am getting the impression that the Rogue no longer has "trap and skills guy" as a form of niche protection. I think skills will be more widely available. Also remember that the "Ranger killed the Scout and took his stuff" so I'm thinking that's skirmish.
2. If the warlord and cleric are meant to fill the same roles, it stands to reason they have similar abilities. If there are fewer types of status effects, a warlord that can cure fear, paralysis and some HP in combat goes a long way towards replacing a cleric. (I'm also hoping for a reserve HP system that reduces the bother of out-of-combat healing.)
3. The 3E Warlock would probably be considered a Striker in 4E, so I think the 4E warlock is going to have more breadth and access to some more utility spells. See Invisible or some equivalent will probably be available as a martial power too. Divinations and Scrying are difficult for many DMs to run, so I hope there are some special rules there.

So yah, I think it'll work.

Fighter occupies enemies and keeps them from his allies.
Warlord buffs the group and deals with HP and status effects while occasionally hitting things.
Ranger dishes out high damage with skirmish, stays out of reach.
Warlock does battlefield control with Darkness and Black Tentacles (or charm and hold), occasionally blasts something.

 

[hong]

I suspect that a dedicated healer will still be the one thing that a group can't do without. Well, you COULD go without, if everyone has a limited form of self-heal, but the improvement in durability if a healer is present will still be massive.

 

[FireLance]

1. Trapfinding was ridiculous, and I'm 90% sure it's gone. I am getting the impression that the Rogue no longer has "trap and skills guy" as a form of niche protection. I think skills will be more widely available.

Yes, I think encounter traps (as seen in Secrets of Xen'drik and Dungeonscape) will become the standard. This means that Trapfinding and a good Disable Device modifier (assuming both of them make it into 4e) will no longer be essential to overcome a trap, you will certainly be at an advantage if you have them.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I suspect that a dedicated healer will still be the one thing that a group can't do without. Well, you COULD go without, if everyone has a limited form of self-heal, but the improvement in durability if a healer is present will still be massive.

Unless, you know, they finally give all spellcasters some healing spells, then we don't need a dedicated healer, because the loss of healing is balanced by the gain of another striker/controller (i.e. if the striker strikes well or the controller controls well, then you never take that much damage, that you positively need a dedicated healer). And with a non-dedicated healer (wizard, warlock), you can still patch up the worst wounded characters, so they don't become a liability.

Then the role of the healer would get more balanced, because it is less essential. And I strongly support healing mages.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Odysseus]

This implies a few changes that have not been stated, if I'm not mistaken:
1. A group can function without a Rogue, so Trapfinding needs to be available to at least all strikers, if not even more characters.
2. A group can function without a Cleric, so debiliating status effects, like petrify, long duration stun, and even instant death on high levels, either need to very avoidable, or need to be curable by all Leaders (including the Warlord, who probably cannot cast).
Instant petrify in particular will probably need to go out of the window.
3. A group can function without a Cleric and a Wizard, so either Warlocks can cast all the important utility spells (like see invisible, fly, scrying, divination, and so on), or those will not be required.

IMO
1 Trapfinding will be generally avavilable.
2. delilating effects will be part of the condtion track. So perhaps part of the leaders powers will be restoring the condtion track status. And instant death style effects are going to be replaced with damage effects.
3. Controller and leader roles, will have access to key utility effects.

 

[Elemmakil]

1. A group can function without a Rogue, so Trapfinding needs to be available to at least all strikers, if not even more characters.
2. A group can function without a Cleric, so debiliating status effects, like petrify, long duration stun, and even instant death on high levels, either need to very avoidable, or need to be curable by all Leaders (including the Warlord, who probably cannot cast).
Instant petrify in particular will probably need to go out of the window.
3. A group can function without a Cleric and a Wizard, so either Warlocks can cast all the important utility spells (like see invisible, fly, scrying, divination, and so on), or those will not be required.

Not all abilities need to correspond to roles. For an example, a paladin could cure debilitating status effects. For that matter, dispel magic could take care of a few of them, and they could just be made shorter-duration in general, so as to make the ability less critical.

I don't think that it will necessarily be safe to assume that all parties have access to all utility spells. Besides, the warlock, cleric and other unannounced could get some.

I've seen plenty of 3E parties without any trapfinders. Personally, I often use summoned monsters to set off traps, and most DM's I play with (along with myself) really don't like traps, anyway.

-Elemmakil

 

[Frostmarrow]

Trapfinding: Traps can be found by search-checks and clever thinking. Do you remember to check for a trip-wire or not?

Curing: Common healing can be natural if hit points stops being confused with actual wounds. Debilitating effects can be cured by the right concoctions. Concoctions can be found "Why are there four potions of cure disease in this otherwise empty room?" or bought "We need something for an acute case of petrification."

Special: Special stuff; flying, invisibility, see invisible; is special and should be. It shouldn't be "you must be flying to enter here" but is should give you an edge or simply save time.

I feel "killing" effects; turn to stone or newt; should kick in at zero hit points - not before. So the medusa has a gaze attack that does 1d8 damage. If that damage sends you to the bottom of your hit points you are petrified... eh petrificated?

 

[Felon]

One thing that come to my mind recently:
(Assuming Warlocks will be Controllers, which seems pretty likely by now):
In 4E, a group consisting of a Fighter, a Warlord, a Ranger and a Warlock will, if we can believe the designers, work just as well as a traditional group consisting of a Fighter, a Cleric, a Rogue and a Wizard.

Where have the designers have ever stated that "a Fighter, a Warlord, a Ranger and a Warlock will....work just as well as a traditional group consisting of a Fighter, a Cleric, a Rogue and a Wizard".

Traps of the gygaxian "look-before-you-leap" variety will go away. It has been decided that being thoughtful and cautious is boring and slows the game down. Traps will be of the Prince of Persia or Tomb Raider variety--big whirling blades will just come flying right out of nowhere the instant you enter the room.