Level Up (A5E) Changes to movement and AoOs

[Fromost the Grimm]

I would like to add back the AoO when using a ranged attack in melee instead of just disadvantage.

Why not give the choice: either focus on making your attack at the cost of defenses, and draw an AoO after the attack, or try to shoot while on the defensive, so make the attach roll with disadvantage.

 

[Horwath]

Why not give the choice: either focus on making your attack at the cost of defenses, and draw an AoO after the attack, or try to shoot while on the defensive, so make the attach roll with disadvantage.

both is good. maybe with extra training(feat?) you could get rid of those.

 

[CubicsRube]

Why not give the choice: either focus on making your attack at the cost of defenses, and draw an AoO after the attack, or try to shoot while on the defensive, so make the attach roll with disadvantage.

Yeah that sounds good.

 

[Stalker0]

I think keeping the OA rules simple was a strong decision in 5e. The more looking up tables to see what provokes, and it made movement more "fluid".

I don't think we need to upturn the apple cart on this one.

That said, I think there is some room for some concrete simple adjusts, such as ranged fire and spellcasting provokes an OA. Its intuitive (even my newer players once they understood OAs always assumed there would be for these kinds of things) and helps to rope those areas in with a clean simple change.

 

[CubicsRube]

I think keeping the OA rules simple was a strong decision in 5e. The more looking up tables to see what provokes, and it made movement more "fluid".

I don't think we need to upturn the apple cart on this one.

That said, I think there is some room for some concrete simple adjusts, such as ranged fire and spellcasting provokes an OA. Its intuitive (even my newer players once they understood OAs always assumed there would be for these kinds of things) and helps to rope those areas in with a clean simple change.

Yeah I agree, that's why I think having min 3 or maximum 7 things that provoke is a good range for me. It's easy to keep in working memory for players new to the game along with other things that need to be remembered. My 3 items would probably be:

1. Moving within an opponent's range
2. Standing up from prone
3. Object Interaction

 

[Horwath]

Yeah I agree, that's why I think having min 3 or maximum 7 things that provoke is a good range for me. It's easy to keep in working memory for players new to the game along with other things that need to be remembered. My 3 items would probably be:

1. Moving within an opponent's range
2. Standing up from prone
3. Object Interaction

Agree mostly;

1. Moving more than 5 ft whithin a threaten area. Cannot be done in difficult terrain. DC 15 acrobatic for half speed without AoO, DC 20 for full speed without AoO. +5 DC in difficult terrain.

2. Standing up from prone, mounting, dismounting. DC 15 acrobatic to negate AoO.

3. Some object interaction. DM's rule. depending how complicated.

4. Spellcasting. Having shield equiped and being proficient negates AoO.

5. Ranged/thrown attacks. Having shield equiped and being proficient negates AoO.

 

[Kinematics]

There are issues from two different directions here.

1. Keeping an opponent from getting away from you.
2. Keeping an opponent from getting close to you.

Both are difficult to achieve in turn-based combat, particularly without feats (ie: Sentinel).

The only job that has built-in movement control is the Cavalier Fighter, and that's not til level 10. (Hold The Line allows AoO against a target that moves within the fighter's threat range (rather than just when leaving the threat range), and reduces the target's speed to 0 if hit.)

The lack of 'live' movement significantly hinders certain types of cinematic fighting, such as a swashbuckling style, or the big fencing scene in The Princess Bride. You can't move as part of the reaction to the attack, which means the fight stays in one place with people metaphorically hitting each other in the face. That in turn means that difficult terrain is actually less useful, because it can't interfere with an ongoing fight; it can only affect your ability to get to a new target.

The Scout Rogue has a feature that kinda approaches this, with Skirmisher allowing you to move half your speed as a reaction after an enemy ends its turn. This does help provide a lead for escape, if that's the rogue's intent, but it doesn't help during the fight itself.

In terms of keeping someone from getting away, I'd consider that a successful AoO should reduce the target's speed by half. If the target has already moved half its speed, it can't move any further. Sentinel and Hold The Line would still be better, directly reducing speed to 0, but it would at least provide a little bit of control against someone trying to get away from you.

In terms of keeping someone from getting close, I'd consider allowing the use of your reaction to step back one square for every square the enemy approaches, up to the limit of your move speed. Any movement used on this reaction is deducted from your next turn's movement. The attacker will want to maneuver you into a corner to pin you down, and getting hit by an AoO when trying to escape that point would reduce your speed, allowing the attacker to more easily catch up.

And for in-combat movement, I'd consider a "Fallback" ability, usable by anyone trained in martial weapons. In this case, each time an attacker makes an attack, you can fall back 5 feet. The attacker can step forward 5 feet to make his next attack, of course. Both combatants would need to consider the risks of AoO's from other people on the battlefield that they're passing through, as well as difficult terrain. Being hit by an AoO when using Fallback should negate the movement, as well as any further Fallback steps.


Note: This is an issue that has bugged me for a while, and I've written up several variant rule ideas. The above are just my current thoughts.

 

[rules.mechanic]

I have tried it. It does slow the game down quite a bit, especially for players that aren't (or have never wanted) to read and memorize the rules. But the net effect was people were more cautious about where they moved. (We used maps and minis.) So that slowed even the seasoned players down. It did make one character increase their movement (forgot how, maybe barbarian) because he wanted ways to go around other enemies. I also think we implemented something in the feats that allowed for the attack to not happen (like a rogue's cunning action). So you may need to go down the rules and determine if there are counters to this that make sense.
I think for us, half the group liked it (a little bit) and the other half really didn't like it. But all groups are different. Good luck either way.

These are the exceptions we used:

• if the opponent is surprised
• if the attacker is hidden from the opponent
• if the opponent is already engaged in combat with another attacker
• if the attacker is wielding a shield
• or if the attacker teleports (or equivalent) directly within range

 

[Undrave]

One of the things that I've thought about implementing in my next 5e campaign is to also allow an opportunity attack when a PC or creature moves within the range of an enemy, rather than just leaving range. This makes it easier for front line forces to block off areas. It also makes shove a potentially more useful option and possible worth giving up an attack for.

Additionally I'm thinking about allowing grapples as an AoO option. This can allow front line combatants to try and stop someone getting past them. Grapples as AoO is in a grey area IMO in the current 5e, but if other tactical options are allowable in LevelUp, it might be an idea to be more explicit about it.

What changes to movement or Attacks of Opportunity does the community think would add value to 5e?

I think it would actually slow down the game and make it more static. Especially since, unlike 4e, 5e just doesn't have a strong 'forced movement' (shove is limited by size for exemple) and 'bonus movement' system in place. I think, rather than adjust AoO themselves, you should adjust the Melee classes so their AoO are simply better.

I've mentionned this before but:

Mage Slayer, Polearm Mastery and Sentinel all give your characters more trigger to your AoO, depending on the type of situation you want to specialize in.

I think that's something that could be integrated into the Fighter class, for exemple. Basically, customizing your AoO rules to fit your character. And add some of these to various monsters to make them more dynamic. That way, when you enter battle, you don't always know what the critters are capable of! You need to do a little prodding, maybe give the Fighter an ability that lets them analyze fighting styles to determine that stuff?

And melee characters could get extra AoO that don't use up their reaction. Maybe base it around Extra Attack? Every Extra Attack you get grants you 1 free AoO per round.

 

[Zaukrie]

I am considering doing what PF2 did, and only certain classes at certain levels get opportunity attacks. I want more movement and use of the terrain. And really, people fighting are in constant movement.

Perhaps something like I think The One Ring does (I think) that there are layers of combat (close, blocking, ranged, or something like that) and only moving between layers would generate an AoO.......because I want my players and monsters moving around and circling each others and whatnot.....that sounds more fun to me.