D&D 5E changes to wiz/ arcane trick and eldritch kn (For campaign homebrew)

HammerMan

Legend
hey I am thinking about running a high magic campaign based around being former members of a mage school.

I want to give everyone a bit of a buff BUT I plan to give the two sub classes a big one. I just want your thoughts on how over powered these changes are. (if everyone helps and this thread takes off I will list my other possible buffs)

Modifications to Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight…. Both sub classes become half casters (use artificer chart starting at level 3) instead of 1/3. Both have a spell book instead of spells known and can prep the number of spells normally known. They start at 3rd level with 3 spells known that must be of the correct schools, every other level they learn 1 new spell for there book that always must be of the schools limited. However hey can learn ANY spell from Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard they just need to find a spellbook/scroll/teacher. They each gain 1 extra cantrip that cannot be a combat/damage one.

a universal buff I am making is all spell casters treat Detect Magic as a cantrip they can learn.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

ECMO3

Hero
EK might be ok with that change, but it would mean no Paladins and few Rangers at the table I think.

AT would be OP if you keep all the powers already in the class and subclass and add more spells and a larger "spellbook".
 

HammerMan

Legend
EK might be ok with that change, but it would mean no Paladins and few Rangers at the table I think.

AT would be OP if you keep all the powers already in the class and subclass and add more spells and a larger "spellbook".
we already see almost no rangers in my home game, and I REALLY want to incentivize ARCANE classes. If you don't mind me asking, what rouge/AT power are you thinking would over power with the ability to learn more spells?
 

ECMO3

Hero
we already see almost no rangers in my home game, and I REALLY want to incentivize ARCANE classes. If you don't mind me asking, what rouge/AT power are you thinking would over power with the ability to learn more spells?
The AT has so much already, especially with Mage Hand Legerdemain and Magical Ambush. RAW Magical ambush with bonus action hide is kept from being way over the top by the fact it takes 13 levels to get 3rd level spells and even with a multiclass you would need to be 11th level for 3rd level spells and could never get higher than 6th level slots. If you make the Rogue a half caster this is coming on much faster. The extra cantrip would mean an AT has more than a wizard.

Also you have the synergy between evasion and absorb elements, sneak attack and find familiar and the general utility of shield. All Rogues potentially have those synergies, but they only can select 2 non-illusions/enchantments until 14th level, and only 1 until 8th, so they have to select one or the other. Giving an expanded spell book gives them all of them and giving them more uses allows them to spam shield, where they would normally need to be judicious so as not to run out of slots.

With 5E I don't really see a desinction between "arcane" and other casters. There are just casters of one of three types - full, half or one-third.
 

HammerMan

Legend
The AT has so much already, especially with Mage Hand Legerdemain and Magical Ambush. RAW Magical ambush with bonus action hide is kept from being way over the top by the fact it takes 13 levels to get 3rd level spells and even with a multiclass you would need to be 11th level for 3rd level spells and could never get higher than 6th level slots. If you make the Rogue a half caster this is coming on much faster. The extra cantrip would mean an AT has more than a wizard.

Also you have the synergy between evasion and absorb elements, sneak attack and find familiar and the general utility of shield. All Rogues potentially have those synergies, but they only can select 2 non-illusions/enchantments until 14th level, and only 1 until 8th, so they have to select one or the other. Giving an expanded spell book gives them all of them and giving them more uses allows them to spam shield, where they would normally need to be judicious so as not to run out of slots.

With 5E I don't really see a desinction between "arcane" and other casters. There are just casters of one of three types - full, half or one-third.
Thank you, all of that is things to think about.

I was going to upgrade the wizard too. And I was using Arcane for short hand, I want to incentivize playing scholarly magic users.

I always try to allow anything but I want to make playing more in theme a benfit.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
hey I am thinking about running a high magic campaign based around being former members of a mage school.

I want to give everyone a bit of a buff BUT I plan to give the two sub classes a big one. I just want your thoughts on how over powered these changes are. (if everyone helps and this thread takes off I will list my other possible buffs)

Modifications to Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight…. Both sub classes become half casters (use artificer chart starting at level 3) instead of 1/3. Both have a spell book instead of spells known and can prep the number of spells normally known. They start at 3rd level with 3 spells known that must be of the correct schools, every other level they learn 1 new spell for there book that always must be of the schools limited. However hey can learn ANY spell from Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard they just need to find a spellbook/scroll/teacher. They each gain 1 extra cantrip that cannot be a combat/damage one.

a universal buff I am making is all spell casters treat Detect Magic as a cantrip they can learn.
It's a pretty big buff, but one that puts them near the top of the power range, not over it. EK might end up a bit too powerful.

Except being able to learn from the other lists. That's too much even if it was the only change. That's taking the absolutely longest spell list, and adding in the little parts that they reserved to for other classes. You pick up some healing from bard, you pick up warlock specialties (that work better on a melee chassis then your generic warlock), etc.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I share the concerns expressed by others.

I think that the concern about too broad a spell list is well founded. I think that a more reasonable boost would be to keep the current model, which is that the AT/EK get one "not limited" spell per each spell level they get, but adjusted for being a half caster. So instead of one at character level 4, 8, 14 and 20, it would be at level 3, 6, 10, 14 and 18.

Lastly, it may make level progression a bit... janky. For example, getting level 2 slots is important, but now happens a level earlier - meaning level 6 for an EK is a bump in spell power AND a feat.
 

I think the basic issue with spell progression is that the 1st level spells only phase, during which casters don't really have enough spell slots to use them freely, lasts until level 7, which is just too long for these subclasses to really come online. Their power level after that seems fine to me. Making them halfcasters solves this problem, but it gives them an unneeded power boost at higher levels. Personally I think the more suitable progression for them would be something like 1/3 caster advanced by 1 or 2 levels.
 

I like it, I would keep it only to wizard spells though. (are there only sorcerer only spells or is it still wiz has every sorc spell) cut out bard, warlock for sure.

Tbh the treasure of spell books/finding teachers would determine how awesome this is... also how you plan to pump wizards (who I assume already would have had the bard/warlock spell add on).

Now will this world have artificers? FOr that matter does it have sorcerers warlocks and bards?

in my latest campaigns I am allowing 2 subclasses for your first class chosen (but not others you multi into, and for warlock you have to choose 1 of the subclasses to double so 2 patrons, or 2 pacts with same not both) I think doing that but requiring the Fighter and Rogue to HAVE to take AT/EK might work better.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I think the basic issue with spell progression is that the 1st level spells only phase, during which casters don't really have enough spell slots to use them freely, lasts until level 7, which is just too long for these subclasses to really come online. Their power level after that seems fine to me. Making them halfcasters solves this problem, but it gives them an unneeded power boost at higher levels. Personally I think the more suitable progression for them would be something like 1/3 caster advanced by 1 or 2 levels.
Yeah but EK is out damaging all other casters in weapon combat while sporting heavy armor and the AT is comparable to half casters in damage with more skills, more expertise and arguably the best bonus action in the game in mage hand legerdemain.
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I think the basic issue with spell progression is that the 1st level spells only phase, during which casters don't really have enough spell slots to use them freely, lasts until level 7, which is just too long for these subclasses to really come online. Their power level after that seems fine to me. Making them halfcasters solves this problem, but it gives them an unneeded power boost at higher levels. Personally I think the more suitable progression for them would be something like 1/3 caster advanced by 1 or 2 levels.
I think you're right. Getting level 2 spells at level 5 seems like a good deal for a half caster. But having to to wait until level 7? oooof.

Your solution has merit, but then we might run into issues with multiclassed characters and their spell slot structure...
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I think the best way of doing it is to give them roughly the same spell level progression as half-casters, but with a slower progression of spell slots, ending with something like 4-3-2-2-1, restricted to wizard spells (no schools).

or a short rest progression ala warlock, starting at 1 slot up to 2 slots (at 7th level) per rest, capped at 4th spell level at 19th level.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I know this is a bit off topic but...

Isn't it strange that there are only two 1/3 casters in the entire game? And both of them are "wizard-based" but don't use a spellbook?
 

cbwjm

Legend
I've always felt that they should have had a spellbook, and that they should be able to choose any wizard spell instead of being restricted to 2 schools with only a few allowed outside them. The current system does make it easy to switch up the caster stat though, like making them use charisma like a sorcerer and making the spells an innate part of them. The main reason I haven't changed them to using a spellbook is because DnDBeyond doesn't work when you make a 1/3 caster with a spellbook, it defaults to the standard spells known of the EK and AT. Could use something outside that or course, but DnDBeyond is just so handy to use.
 

HammerMan

Legend
I know this is a bit off topic but...

Isn't it strange that there are only two 1/3 casters in the entire game? And both of them are "wizard-based" but don't use a spellbook?
Yes, and like I said I have other buffs in mind and part of it includes a 1/2 warlock sub class for barbarian, and a Druid class that gets warlock like effects.
 

HammerMan

Legend
I like it, I would keep it only to wizard spells though. (are there only sorcerer only spells or is it still wiz has every sorc spell) cut out bard, warlock for sure.

Tbh the treasure of spell books/finding teachers would determine how awesome this is... also how you plan to pump wizards (who I assume already would have had the bard/warlock spell add on).

Now will this world have artificers? FOr that matter does it have sorcerers warlocks and bards?

in my latest campaigns I am allowing 2 subclasses for your first class chosen (but not others you multi into, and for warlock you have to choose 1 of the subclasses to double so 2 patrons, or 2 pacts with same not both) I think doing that but requiring the Fighter and Rogue to HAVE to take AT/EK might work better.
I never restrict any WoTC class, I just try to make some more attractive. The double subclass is something I have heard before (to make people have more options and not a major power increase) I may consider that.

My wizard gets every 5 levels (starting at 5th) a choice of an artificer infusion, or a warlock invocation (but wizard levels don't count as prereqs) and there spell books can learn ANY spell (inlcuding druid/cleric ect) but not at level up, only by teacher/scroll making them the ultimate master of all magic.

Tomb Pact Warlocks will also be able to use spell slots to cast rituals in there ritual books, and expanding high level rituals.
 

Joshy

Explorer
Giving them at will detect magic can be a pain.
I use a homebrew version of the Eldritch Knight that improves the bonded weapon with your eldritch knight damage dealing cantrips.

Changes:
Weapon Bond:
  • Bonded Weapon can't be disarmed against your will.
  • Once you have bonded a weapon to yourself, you can't be disarmed of that weapon unless you are incapacitated.
  • You can draw or stow your bonded weapons from up to 30ft away.
  • If it is on the same plane of existence, you can summon that weapon as a bonus action on your turn, causing it to teleport instantly to your hand.
  • You can bond with a number of weapons equal to your proficiency.
  • You can use your bonded weapon as a spellcasting focus. A bonded weapon used in this way applies any enhancement bonus it may have to your spell attacks rolls and spell save DC.
  • As part of an attack with a bonded weapon you may infuse it with a cantrip that deals damage. The bonded weapons damage type becomes that of the cantrip. If the cantrip has either a spell attack roll or a saving throw, then on hit you may apply any secondary effects.
 
Last edited:

aco175

Legend
I would be in favor of keeping the trickster at 1/3 caster, but open the spells to all wizard a bit of what @cbwjm was saying above. I like to other stuff and not just spellpower, but the limits to schools could be opened if you want a bit of expansion.
 


Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top