Changing campaign style - casting for ideas & comments!

[StalkingBlue]

As you may have read elsewhere, I run a Midnight campaign - a game set in a high-fantasy, rare-magic world where there’s only one god (evil) and the orcs are on top. The players play resistance fighters, currently based just inside the edge of the almost continent-spanning Elven forest.

I'm currently planning to make a number of changes that will affect the overall campaign style. (Amongst other things I'll be introducing Fate Points to avoid death at -10hp to lower the death toll amongst PCs, currently 1 per 3 sessions on average.)

The single biggest change - and the one I'm looking for advice on - will involve the type of scenarios.

Up to now I've run guerrilla-type scenarios pretty much all the way - insertion behind enemy lines to bodyguard an agent or sabotage an evil temple, fighting orc troops in the forest (see my recent orc tactics thread), stuff like that. While fun in principle, the grimness and brokenness of the world is beginning to tell on us, and the fact that PCs are constantly outnumbered and outgunned is limiting their options to be proactive, go out of that stuffy forest and start drumming up some real resistance, at least until they reach much higher levels.

I designed and ran a slightly different scenario for them a while ago, which we all enjoyed a lot. (There was one minor glitch, but well... we live and learn.) After consideration, I've decided I'd like to expand on things in that scenario, more decisively and a lot sooner than I'd originally intended.

That scenario involved the PCs finding themselves in the role of entirely different people living in an earlier age. They 'were' human nobles escorting their prince to his wedding with an elven princess. Gradually during the session PCs regained their own memories, and pulled together in time not only (as the prince's escort) to avert a massacre of the humans by elves due to a terrible misunderstanding, but (as the PCs) to achieve the mission they'd really been sent on.

Basically I want to expand the game from a linear approach into other times and other places. Let's call such scenarios the 'Outside' scenarios for now - PCs operating outside their own time and/or place.
There are a number of things that will be important to make this work I think, and probably more that I haven't even seen yet. Some things I know I need to consider are:

- Make scenarios meaningful to the PCs. This means that success in an Outside scenario should affect the PCs' ordinary reality in some way. It shouldn't be a "let's go change the timeline" approach though, I want it to be both more subtle and more staggering than that - this is still fantasy, not Star Trek.
It might mean that in some cases I'll allow PCs glimpses of present-day reality (e.g. the ruins of a town razed by orcs) 'beyond' the Outside (e.g. the town in all its historical splendour), and might let them witness a change as it occurs. It might mean letting them meet a recurring NPC after returning from the Outside, who now has a changed outlook on life. In some cases it might mean ripples through their place and time that aren't apparent at first - but I won't be able to use that often or it'll be frustrating for players.

- Root PCs in the 'Outside'. I think one of the vital things in the scenario that I ran was that every PC also was a person living at the court of the prince-bridegroom, in that earlier age. So I'm thinking I'll tend to give PCs alternate personalities to use in such a scenario. Unlike in the first scenario that I ran, PCs would retain their normal memories though.
I might also give PCs 'contact points', to be spent on having a friendly contact in wherever location/time they happen to find themselves in a given scenario.

- Allow for rapport to be built with recurring NPCs. This is a key point in rewarding roleplaying, and all the more important in a world currently that provides little incentive in the way of riches, magic items, or high office. Providing a base for the PCs to return to will be important I think. I might also have certain NPCs have 'echos' that live in a particular other time and/or place, which the PCs would recognise as potential allies even though the Outside NPC might not know who they were. (A bit of a Moorcock ripoff here, yup. )

- Give players some degree of control over where and when to go. Player freedom is vital. Yet, this bit is tricky. The party currently averages 5th level, not sure how far I want to go in giving them control over their travels (by spells or magic items yet to be designed). I'm thinking it'll have to be a gradual thing, definitely not full control for now: for one thing the party is still too low level to make that feel quite right, for another I need to stay in control right now and see how my approach works and what I want to offer as possibly scenarios.
I might design a way by which PCs can be 'sent' into Outside scenarios at an NPC's prompting - their only in-game input in these cases being to either agree or decline to go.
OTOH I'm also hoping that with time I'll get input on players on where/to when their PCs would like to go and what to do, which I can then work from to create scenarios to run.

- Keep rapport to the PCs' own world. I'll still be running scenarios in the current-time environment, fighting orcs and priests of the evil god, the important thing will be to find a good mix and balance that will allow all of us to stay inspired to play in and run this game.

- In time, provide an in-game explanation for what's up with all those 'Outside' things. Part of my explanation is engrained in the setting: the game world has been cut off from other planes (including all gods except the fallen evil one) for roughly nine millennia. In all that time, souls, dreams and memories have been unable to escape from the plane and are accumulating in a thick layer. This layer might be the way to pass through into other times and places... who knows? ...


I'd be glad for any comments, feedback, ideas on this. Have you run/played in similar scenarios or campaigns? If so, what's your experience? If not, what strikes you/inspires you/puts you off/makes you think or wonder?

Maybe most importantly, what am I overlooking?


Meanwhile, I'll be talking to my players about it this coming Thursday (and am pointing them here). See what they say.

 

[randomling]

I'm one of StalkingBlue's players, so I thought I'd leap in and be the first to give my opinions.

As you may have read elsewhere, I run a Midnight campaign - a game set in a high-fantasy, rare-magic world where there’s only one god (evil) and the orcs are on top. The players play resistance fighters, currently based just inside the edge of the almost continent-spanning Elven forest.

I'm currently planning to make a number of changes that will affect the overall campaign style. (Amongst other things I'll be introducing Fate Points to avoid death at -10hp to lower the death toll amongst PCs, currently 1 per 3 sessions on average.)

The single biggest change - and the one I'm looking for advice on - will involve the type of scenarios.

Up to now I've run guerrilla-type scenarios pretty much all the way - insertion behind enemy lines to bodyguard an agent or sabotage an evil temple, fighting orc troops in the forest (see my recent orc tactics thread), stuff like that. While fun in principle, the grimness and brokenness of the world is beginning to tell on us, and the fact that PCs are constantly outnumbered and outgunned is limiting their options to be proactive, go out of that stuffy forest and start drumming up some real resistance, at least until they reach much higher levels.

I've been loving the grimness of Midnight. It feels heroic in a Beowulf/Tolkein sense - at best, our heroes are destined to die achieving something earth-shattering and wonderful, at worst we're doomed to die achieving little or nothing at all. I wouldn't want to lose that impression or the dangerousness of the setting. However, I am at a point where I want to start making a tangible difference in the game setting, and (now 6th level) I don't have the power or influence to do that yet.

I designed and ran a slightly different scenario for them a while ago, which we all enjoyed a lot. (There was one minor glitch, but well... we live and learn.) After consideration, I've decided I'd like to expand on things in that scenario, more decisively and a lot sooner than I'd originally intended.

That scenario involved the PCs finding themselves in the role of entirely different people living in an earlier age. They 'were' human nobles escorting their prince to his wedding with an elven princess. Gradually during the session PCs regained their own memories, and pulled together in time not only (as the prince's escort) to avert a massacre of the humans by elves due to a terrible misunderstanding, but (as the PCs) to achieve the mission they'd really been sent on.

I loved the ghost scenario - it was a refreshing change of pace from our ordinary game style, an opportunity for lots of great roleplay (being one of the already-awakened PCs trying to snap her friends out of the amnesiac state was fantastic) and a genuinely fun adventure where I felt like we'd genuinely achieved something. The repercussions later have reinforced that impression - with the one adventure that didn't take place in the "real world", the PCs made life significantly better for a fairly large number of humans in Erethor, which feels like an important achievement.

Basically I want to expand the game from a linear approach into other times and other places. Let's call such scenarios the 'Outside' scenarios for now - PCs operating outside their own time and/or place.
There are a number of things that will be important to make this work I think, and probably more that I haven't even seen yet. Some things I know I need to consider are:

- Make scenarios meaningful to the PCs. This means that success in an Outside scenario should affect the PCs' ordinary reality in some way. It shouldn't be a "let's go change the timeline" approach though, I want it to be both more subtle and more staggering than that - this is still fantasy, not Star Trek.
It might mean that in some cases I'll allow PCs glimpses of present-day reality (e.g. the ruins of a town razed by orcs) 'beyond' the Outside (e.g. the town in all its historical splendour), and might let them witness a change as it occurs. It might mean letting them meet a recurring NPC after returning from the Outside, who now has a changed outlook on life. In some cases it might mean ripples through their place and time that aren't apparent at first - but I won't be able to use that often or it'll be frustrating for players.

I like the sound of that - I certainly wouldn't be in favour of Star Trek-esque forays in the past to rewrite historical events to our liking. But I do like the idea of making small but tangible differences to the campaign world. Of course, in keeping with the dangerous feel of the game, we ought to be able to influence the present/future positively as well as negatively!

- Root PCs in the 'Outside'. I think one of the vital things in the scenario that I ran was that every PC also was a person living at the court of the prince-bridegroom, in that earlier age. So I'm thinking I'll tend to give PCs alternate personalities to use in such a scenario. Unlike in the first scenario that I ran, PCs would retain their normal memories though.
I might also give PCs 'contact points', to be spent on having a friendly contact in wherever location/time they happen to find themselves in a given scenario.

If you're going to take us out of our accustomed time and/or place, rooting us in the scenario is probably important. Certainly taking on alternate personas (that were also close to our own personalities as PCs) was part of the fun of the scenario as well as one of the things that helped us to make sense of what was going on! I like the idea of the Contact Points - I can imagine good contacts being necessary for survivability in some cases, and mightily useful in others...

- Allow for rapport to be built with recurring NPCs. This is a key point in rewarding roleplaying, and all the more important in a world currently that provides little incentive in the way of riches, magic items, or high office. Providing a base for the PCs to return to will be important I think. I might also have certain NPCs have 'echos' that live in a particular other time and/or place, which the PCs would recognise as potential allies even though the Outside NPC might not know who they were. (A bit of a Moorcock ripoff here, yup. )

Hm - that's a really interesting idea! Of course the attraction for me as a player is to have my PC achieve great heroic things rather than accumulate riches or high office. (Magic items never go astray... but in Midnight... )

- Give players some degree of control over where and when to go. Player freedom is vital. Yet, this bit is tricky. The party currently averages 5th level, not sure how far I want to go in giving them control over their travels (by spells or magic items yet to be designed). I'm thinking it'll have to be a gradual thing, definitely not full control for now: for one thing the party is still too low level to make that feel quite right, for another I need to stay in control right now and see how my approach works and what I want to offer as possibly scenarios.
I might design a way by which PCs can be 'sent' into Outside scenarios at an NPC's prompting - their only in-game input in these cases being to either agree or decline to go.
OTOH I'm also hoping that with time I'll get input on players on where/to when their PCs would like to go and what to do, which I can then work from to create scenarios to run.

My freedom is very important to me, but at the same time being able to pick and choose where and when we go right off would be too much and too confusing for now, especially when we know so little about the past.

Maybe in a few levels we could find a way to have more choice than just being sent. I think that as we get more involved with this, we'll end up with a unique (or near-unique) vantage point on the world, with a much clearer idea of the big picture than many NPCs that we currently think of as being extremely powerful.

- Keep rapport to the PCs' own world. I'll still be running scenarios in the current-time environment, fighting orcs and priests of the evil god, the important thing will be to find a good mix and balance that will allow all of us to stay inspired to play in and run this game.

That's very important to me too - I enjoyed the ghost scenario hugely, but I also love playing in our current "regular" style, fighting and killing evil forces, and hopefully making headway against the Shadow with force and tactics as well as wandering about in the past (or whatever).

- In time, provide an in-game explanation for what's up with all those 'Outside' things. Part of my explanation is engrained in the setting: the game world has been cut off from other planes (including all gods except the fallen evil one) for roughly nine millennia. In all that time, souls, dreams and memories have been unable to escape from the plane and are accumulating in a thick layer. This layer might be the way to pass through into other times and places... who knows? ...

Ooh, I like the idea of that. Something I read in a Midnight book somewhere also ties in with this for me, too - something called "the magic of fate", which according to the books creates the heroic paths and covenant items and other nifty stuff, as it tries to nudge the world away from the dark god and back towards the fate it was "supposed" to have. If that inspires you maybe it could be worked in too?

I'd be glad for any comments, feedback, ideas on this. Have you run/played in similar scenarios or campaigns? If so, what's your experience? If not, what strikes you/inspires you/puts you off/makes you think or wonder?

Maybe most importantly, what am I overlooking?

Can't think of anything you're overlooking, for now anyway. I'll look forward to discussing things with the group on Thursday!

Hope some of that was helpful...

 

[random user]

I've run something similar in my campaign and my players enjoy it. Here are a couple other neat things I've discovered:

- it allows you more freedom. In most campaigns, it's a fine line between providing a challenge to the party vs. a TPK or a roll-over. If your players are only sent back mentally (via a dream or Astrally or whatever), you can be a little more daring.

I would never set my players up against a challenge I think will TPK them. But this becomes possible in a dream situation. Any scenario should still be set up so the players will take care so they don't die (ie they don't get a magic item or the information they are looking for if they die etc), but every once in a while, it's fun to run a scenario where the hope of surviving is minimal, but oh what a story it would make if they did. And maybe it would still be a great story even if they didn't (many heroic stories tell of a hero who sacrificed himself to save the world).

- it allows you more flexibility. Have you wanted to run a one-shot in Eberron but didn't want to stop your current campaign? Well, go ahead and run the one-shot through this type of scenario. Just find a way to hook in some information from the one-shot into the regular campaign.

In my campaign, my characters will, at some point in the future, be playing gestalt characters. They will be playing their own characters superimposed upon a single-class similarly leveled character (no prestige classes allowed). (I have a mechanism in place to explain how this will happen.)

Now imagine the power level of six characters level 6 or 7, all gestalt. I would never ever ever want to run a campaign trying to balance encounters to something like this. But I'm combining it with #1 -- they are going to go up against some seriously powerful stuff (I'm talking like CR16+ stuff).

I think they'll get a blast trying out, for one night, being super powerful. The scenario will start with them rampaging over some shock troops, and then the hard monsters will show up. It'll be a shoot'em-up brawl which the players only have a small chance to survive. Regardless of if they survive, there will be a reward. If they do survive, though, it will serve as a plot hook into other areas which have further rewards.

- it can allow you to explore other types of play. Puzzles or intrigue are well-suited to this scenario. Whether it be something like Groundhog Day (where the players relive the day until they figure out how to fix it), or being stuck in a giant puzzle trap with only a riddle to help them escape, or being placed into a city with the objective of trying to obtain specific information, there is a lot of potential to have non-combat scenarios.

In my campaign, my players recently visited the ruins of a city which was destroyed 5000 years ago. For whatever reason, the undead killed there respawn after a few years. However, there is a fountain in the middle of the city which has magical properties, which makes it popular with the adventurers.

Soon after that, I ran a scenario where the players were transported back to a few months before the city was destroyed. They had to figure out who they were, and also why they were there. The entire scenario took place without a single fight, but my players still had fun.

- don't overlook that you can run scenarios in multiple parts, potentially. Depending on how you do them, it's possible to have a "do over" or at least multiple trips.

My players didn't get all the information they wanted to when they went to the city, but they'll potentially get another chance (I have a method by which scenarios are presented, and they have some control over it.) at it if they care enough.

Are these scenarios into the past reality? Or are they just a perception of reality? When you go back do you alter the course of history? Or is it sometimes one way and sometimes another way? These are questions which don't really need answering. As a DM, you can tailor each scenario such that it fits into your world and timeline.

Good luck, and I hope you have fun! I know my players really enjoy it.

 

[LostSoul]

That sounds really cool. I can imagine a scenario where the PCs, in the past fighting Evil, know they are going to lose so they want to help out those in the future as much as possible. They could set up caches of information, weapons, hiding places, or some kind of magic item that allows communication back and forth (maybe through some kind of foresight/divination).

There was an interesting part in one of the Dune books where (spoilers here) the God Emperor left a message that would be discovered by the right person at the right time. You could have something like that - where the PCs in the Outside/past leave a message to the PCs in the future, telling them about some kind of weakness of the bad guys.

(I'd probably run that backwards, though; the PCs in the present "stumble" across something that really helps them out in some dire time of need. Then you flash back to the other PCs in the past who now have to figure out some kind of way to send that message to the PCs in the present. This takes away PC choice in that it already gives them their goal, but I think it would be neat.)

One thing you could go with is something like "do not forget us." The PCs in the past want to preserve some kind of memory about what the world was like back then, so they leave things for the PCs in the present to find.

 

[cdsaint]

Now imagine the power level of six characters level 6 or 7, all gestalt. I would never ever ever want to run a campaign trying to balance encounters to something like this. But I'm combining it with #1 -- they are going to go up against some seriously powerful stuff (I'm talking like CR16+ stuff).

Interesting Idea. You could take stats and so forth from the "host" NPC and add skills & feats from the actual PC so that the players would have some familiarity with their characters, but have a few fun new toys to play with. This is going to be one of those annoying ideas that won't go away.

Chris

 

[Dogbrain]

"Remember the trash can."

 

[StalkingBlue]

Hm. I stay away for a day and neat ideas accumulate ....

Great!

I've run something similar in my campaign and my players enjoy it.

Hm. More detail about the "something similar" please?

Here are a couple other neat things I've discovered:

- it allows you more freedom. In most campaigns, it's a fine line between providing a challenge to the party vs. a TPK or a roll-over. If your players are only sent back mentally (via a dream or Astrally or whatever), you can be a little more daring.

I would never set my players up against a challenge I think will TPK them. But this becomes possible in a dream situation. Any scenario should still be set up so the players will take care so they don't die (ie they don't get a magic item or the information they are looking for if they die etc), but every once in a while, it's fun to run a scenario where the hope of surviving is minimal, but oh what a story it would make if they did. And maybe it would still be a great story even if they didn't (many heroic stories tell of a hero who sacrificed himself to save the world).

Interesting. As a group we're all very much into player freedom, the chance to actually affect things in game, and consistency in the sense that actions have consequences and aren't explained away after the fact. So I probably wouldn't spring this kind of thing on my players without letting them know in advance that in this scenario death won't mean real death for their PCs .... But it could make for a great change of pace to include a 'pure-dream' scenario, where PC death or even a TPK wouldn't actually 'count'.

- it allows you more flexibility. Have you wanted to run a one-shot in Eberron but didn't want to stop your current campaign? Well, go ahead and run the one-shot through this type of scenario. Just find a way to hook in some information from the one-shot into the regular campaign.

We...ell, Eberron isn't exactly on my must-have list right now....

Seriously though, I take your point.

I'm maybe fortunate in that Midnight has a number of rather otherwordly-feeling times and places to explore within the framework of its own setting.
- Elven and Dwarvish cultures are very isolated in this world and preserve much of their specific Tolkienesque charm;
- there are a a number of human cultures around that have seen entire ages of glory;
- there is a whole other continent somewhere about which little is known;
- not least, the bad guys have a human-dominated highly organised church, a mostly-orcish army, several Night Kings with (in my game) agendas of their own ...
I'd like to mostly preserve the flavour of the setting, very much Tolkien at the end of the First Age (the darker bits of the Silmarillion), only humans figure in it and my game actually is fairly human-centred rather than built around elves.

But if I ever feel the campaign needs a breath of fresh air, I could just drop something with a different feel in with a minimum effort as to justification. Cool.

In my campaign, my characters will, at some point in the future, be playing gestalt characters. They will be playing their own characters superimposed upon a single-class similarly leveled character (no prestige classes allowed). (I have a mechanism in place to explain how this will happen.)

Now imagine the power level of six characters level 6 or 7, all gestalt. I would never ever ever want to run a campaign trying to balance encounters to something like this. But I'm combining it with #1 -- they are going to go up against some seriously powerful stuff (I'm talking like CR16+ stuff).

I think they'll get a blast trying out, for one night, being super powerful. The scenario will start with them rampaging over some shock troops, and then the hard monsters will show up. It'll be a shoot'em-up brawl which the players only have a small chance to survive. Regardless of if they survive, there will be a reward. If they do survive, though, it will serve as a plot hook into other areas which have further rewards.

Nice idea. What's the mechanic you will be using for this?

In my first (experimental) scenario PCs had their own stats, if not (at first) their own memories. It would be nice to be able to drop in certain rules bits from their Outside host NPCs it it suits the scenario.

How do you explain the transition between real-world and dream scenarios in your game anyway? Do you give PCs control? Do you give your players input on what kinds of scenarios they'd like to play? What's the in-game justification - time-travel, plane-hopping, or something else?

- it can allow you to explore other types of play. Puzzles or intrigue are well-suited to this scenario. Whether it be something like Groundhog Day (where the players relive the day until they figure out how to fix it), or being stuck in a giant puzzle trap with only a riddle to help them escape, or being placed into a city with the objective of trying to obtain specific information, there is a lot of potential to have non-combat scenarios.

Yup, my experimental scenario had traits of a giant puzzle trap, although the PCs could have left without achieving their mission once they figured out who they really were and why they'd been sent.

My experience with DnD in general and with this group in particular is that players tend to complain if there isn't at least one chance of combat in a given session, but I've run scenarios with little combat successfully for them, and would like to do more.

(It's sort of difficult though - designing and running combat challenges for this group is dangerously attractive, we all enjoy it far too much... )

In my campaign, my players recently visited the ruins of a city which was destroyed 5000 years ago. For whatever reason, the undead killed there respawn after a few years. However, there is a fountain in the middle of the city which has magical properties, which makes it popular with the adventurers.

Soon after that, I ran a scenario where the players were transported back to a few months before the city was destroyed. They had to figure out who they were, and also why they were there. The entire scenario took place without a single fight, but my players still had fun.

Cool twist. I assume the PCs were supposed to protect the fountain from being destroyed? What would you have done if that had failed?
I mean: what would you have done to the city in their present time, would the fountain still be there or not?

- don't overlook that you can run scenarios in multiple parts, potentially. Depending on how you do them, it's possible to have a "do over" or at least multiple trips.

My players didn't get all the information they wanted to when they went to the city, but they'll potentially get another chance (I have a method by which scenarios are presented, and they have some control over it.) at it if they care enough.

Hm, good point. Can you tell me more about your method of scenario presentation and players' control over it? That's one bit I haven't properly worked out yet. I'll be playing it by ear for now until I see how things work for the group, but I'd like to get a better system eventually that will give players a chance to understand where their input is wanted or needed.

Are these scenarios into the past reality? Or are they just a perception of reality? When you go back do you alter the course of history? Or is it sometimes one way and sometimes another way? These are questions which don't really need answering. As a DM, you can tailor each scenario such that it fits into your world and timeline.

Don't need answering?!

Yay! You are right of course. Very good point. Yup, I want a solution I can tailor. "Sometimes one way and sometimes another" is probably a fair description.

I definitely don't want time travel as such, OTOH pure dreams that affect nothing in the real world except maybe laying some ghosts to rest aren't a viable basis for a long-term game. Especially not in Midnight, where the present-day situation offers more pressing challenges and problems than dealing with the problems of dead people from a few thousand years ago.

Good luck, and I hope you have fun! I know my players really enjoy it.

Thanks! I'm sure we'll have fun. I've already heard briefly from my players, all of them appear to be interested. We'll talk more later this week, but it's sounding really good.

 

[StalkingBlue]

LostSoul - Thanks for your ideas, nice stuff.

I'm not planning to go for time travel as such, so leaving items in a place for yourself to find a couple of centuries/millennia later won't necessarily work.

What I'm thinking of is a 'layer' of memories, events and spirits of people that links places and times across the world. It won't bring you into the actual past to murder the world's BBEG in his cradle (although it could be used for quick-travel from place to place if people could figure out how ...), but affecting situations, people and events inside 'pockets' or 'bubbles' that may form (and possibly dissolve) in the 'layer' may affect things in what people experience as the real world.

Hm. I've just found a name for my layer. The Veil. Ironically the Veil is already written into the setting, except that it's described as cutting the world off from other planes and from its gods. Those few DMs who discuss opportunities to save the world of Midnight usually claim it will involve "piercing the Veil"... Hmmm...

 

[StalkingBlue]

"Remember the trash can."

"Thank you for your rubbish. Visit us again soon."

 

[Whisper72]

What is cool to do, is to show the PC's 'how things came to be this way'. They can be part of events leading to the slaying of the good gods by the evil god etc. In so doing, they may witness parts of a prophecy or otherwise discover stuff. Maybe they'll discover knowledge that allows them to masquarade as agents for the evil empire, thus better able to infiltrate into enemy strongholds and so be more effective resistance fighters (i.e. maybe they unearth some 'dirt' on some BBEG so they can blackmail it) etc.

Letting the PC's find knowledge is easier to incorporate then real physical changes (although I would let that happen as well, as it is really cool for the PC's to see some 'direct' impact from their dream sequences as well...)