Changing Saving Throws and DC's

[Spatzimaus]

Side note:

To take this idea a step further: Cha and Wis could form your base will save, Int and Dex could form you base Reflex save and Strength and Constitution could form your base Fort save.

IMC, we've actually done this for a long time now, except under the old-style system. The Fortitude save bonus is (STR mod + CON mod)/2, rounded down, instead of just adding the CON mod. Reflex is INT and DEX, Will is WIS and CHA. The logic is simple; someone with a high STR uses their raw muscle strength to overcome weakening attacks, instead of relying on their endurance (CON). Someone with a high INT can process information quickly enough to know the best direction to dodge (where's cover, etc.), instead of just trying to move quickly in a random direction (DEX). Someone with a strong sense of self (CHA) is unlikely to lose control of their mind.

It's worked beautifully. For one thing, +save items are now more valuable, since the save bonus of, say, a +CON item just got cut in half. Likewise, spells that boost stats don't pump up the saves as much as they used to.
Also, classes that focus on one 3E-save-specific stat (Rogues for DEX, Clerics/Druids for WIS) are no longer effectively immune to one save type, while those focusing on the others aren't penalized so much. And it really differentiates Wizards (good reflex save, effectively) from Sorcerers (good will save).

 

[Nellisir]

IMC, we've actually done this for a long time now, except under the old-style system. The Fortitude save bonus is (STR mod + CON mod)/2, rounded down, instead of just adding the CON mod. Reflex is INT and DEX, Will is WIS and CHA. The logic is simple; someone with a high STR uses their raw muscle strength to overcome weakening attacks, instead of relying on their endurance (CON). Someone with a high INT can process information quickly enough to know the best direction to dodge (where's cover, etc.), instead of just trying to move quickly in a random direction (DEX). Someone with a strong sense of self (CHA) is unlikely to lose control of their mind.

I'm going to steal this.

 

[Nellisir]

To take this idea a step further: Cha and Wis could form your base will save, Int and Dex could form you base Reflex save and Strength and Constitution could form your base Fort save. This is quickly becoming interesting. And on the spell casting side their DC's could be derived from two stats too.
Cleric- wis and cha
Druid- wis and int
Wizard- int and wis
sorcerer- cha and wis

This would lead to a lot more min maxing. So, I actually dont like it. It is more likely that characters would have more average saves yet the caster who min/maxes would have a doubly powerful DC boost. Cool concept though.

Not if the modifiers to the save DCs drew off of all 6 stats, just like the save variant we're discussing. IE, the save DC for a fortitude save would be 10 + (Str + Con)/2, the save DC for a Reflex save would be 10 + (Dex+Int)/2, and a Will save would be 10 + (Will + Cha)/2.

The wizardly inclination towards blasting (Reflex save) spells suddenly makes sense. And enchanters would want to be charismatic.

I'd like to have one mental stat and one physical stat for each save, but that's a little hard to justify. Con makes sense for Fort saves, and Dex for Reflex, but Str doesn't make sense for Will saves; Wis is good for Will, Int is good for Reflex, but Cha doesn't really make sense for Fort saves.

 

[Nellisir]

The base assumption that these spells will be more effective in this system is slightly flawed- see above. They should be nearly the same effectiveness wise. And... the save or die IMHO is a problem anyway. The high level games I have played in have all been- "save or die" next step "failed roll" next step "spend 10k true res". It got old and annoying after a bit.

Lower-level spells will be more effective than they are currently against higher-level characters if save DCs don't reflect spell level, and save bonuses don't automatically reflect character level.

I think it is just more simple. And I think it is cool side effect that the DC's of lower level spells are still just as effective... (remember in general their effects are not as great as high level spells though).

Metagame, it's simpler. In game, it'll make magic look more dangerous.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'd like to have one mental stat and one physical stat for each save, but that's a little hard to justify.

Plus, there's no need to balance it like that, since the saves weren't balanced to begin with. Think about how "dangerous" each save type is.

Fortitude: most of the time I've encountered this, it was because of poison or disease, neither of which will kill you quickly. (Okay, there are high-level save-or-die ones, but work with me here.) There are spells to remove both, and ability damage can be healed. So, tying it to two physical stats (only one of which is ever a dump stat) isn't a problem.

Reflex: Area-effect spells. The effects of these spells can be healed, but it's easy to overload a healer with enough of these, so it's a good save to have. Moderately dangerous, so tying it to one physical stat and one mental stat (neither of which is a dump stat) is fine.

And then there's Will saves. The most important save, IMO, because not only do most of them remove your character from a fight outright, many actually turn you against your group. And which stats get linked to that? Two mental dump stats. Admit it: if WIS had to share the Will save with something like STR, and you weren't a class that used WIS for something specific, which would you put your points into?

So, thematic elements aside, putting Will saves as WIS+CHA ensures that no stat gets left behind. Just as many people will go low-WIS as low-CHA, and the demand for a good Will save will motivate people to keep both at decent levels.

 

[Sadrik]

IMC, we've actually done this for a long time now, except under the old-style system. The Fortitude save bonus is (STR mod + CON mod)/2, rounded down, instead of just adding the CON mod. Reflex is INT and DEX, Will is WIS and CHA. The logic is simple; someone with a high STR uses their raw muscle strength to overcome weakening attacks, instead of relying on their endurance (CON). Someone with a high INT can process information quickly enough to know the best direction to dodge (where's cover, etc.), instead of just trying to move quickly in a random direction (DEX). Someone with a strong sense of self (CHA) is unlikely to lose control of their mind.

Casters still base their spell casting off of one stat in your game?

Now the question is, would this idea work with the flattened saves and DCs system? If a player had to average his two saves likely he would not have a penalty and not have a way out bonus (more average saves). So, a caster who maxes out their caster stat will definitely have a bonus. This may be what I was looking for because I was a little worried that the Save DC's would not be high enough with all of the available bonuses out there. It might just work...

I'll have to try it out one game session- applying the flattened saves and DC's with the averaged saves.

 

[Nellisir]

Fortitude: most of the time I've encountered this, it was because of poison or disease, neither of which will kill you quickly. (Okay, there are high-level save-or-die ones, but work with me here.)

(When you say "Fortitude", I think "petrification", but you're right - disease and poison come up more. I just happened to include a cockatrice in my last session. So, yeah, I'll work with you. )

I get your logic, and agree with it. I wonder if it won't trend saves and DCs even more towards an average, but you can bump both with magical items, or even class bonuses. So I'm OK with it.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Casters still base their spell casting off of one stat in your game?

Sort of; we've used this rule in three separate campaigns.
In the first campaign (more or less straight D&D), yes, casters still used stats the way they always have.
In the second campaign (heavily house-ruled D&D) the Wizard and Sorcerer class were merged into a spontaneous INT-based caster (as was the Bard), but the save DC for ALL casters used your CHA (the INT/WIS determined bonus spells, max spell level, etc.)
The third campaign (the total homebrew) was mostly skill-based casting, meaning the casting stats didn't do as much; even though only one stat set the save DC, you couldn't raise only that one stat at the expense of the others. For instance, the custom Channeler class was a INT-based "drain" caster, in that casting any spell effectively cost you HP depending on its level. So, a Channeler needs a decent CON as well as his INT.

Now the question is, would this idea work with the flattened saves and DCs system?

I don't know. Personally I'm not sure I like the flat DC system, if only because it makes certain 1st-level spells much stronger. For instance, compare the 1st-level charm person to the 4th-level charm monster; in most campaigns 90% of your powerful enemies will be a "person", so the power difference between the two spells is more based on the +3 DC difference than anything else. The only thing that keeps a high-level Sorcerer from using charm person a half-dozen times per day to dominate high-level play is its low DC.

The same logic applies to the dominate spells, baleful polymorph, phantasmal killer, all of the Shadow spells... and to anything you apply metamagic to. If you've got fireball and Empower Spell, do you really need delayed blast fireball? Effectively, metamagics become twice as effective, because now you can use them to replace high-level spells without suffering the save DC loss.
Basically, I think you'd need to adjust the levels of many low-level spells to keep things balanced, and I'm not sure the result is worth the effort.

If a player had to average his two saves likely he would not have a penalty and not have a way out bonus (more average saves).

In most cases, the TOTAL save was slightly reduced (since you round down), but yes, saves were more averaged. But this doesn't give an advantage to the caster; if anything, it's a disadvantage.

Think about it. Right now, I look at a fast, agile Rogue, and I KNOW that a Reflex-based spell is worthless, but that anything else will be very effective. So, as long as I throw something non-Reflex, my chance of success is very high. While the average of his three saves is reasonable, I know his weaknesses well.
But under this system, his Reflex will be lower, and his others will probably be a bit higher. So what do I throw at him? No matter what I use, he'll have a noticeable chance to resist. I now can't be as sure which save to use. Okay, maybe he's a Weapon Finesse guy (meaning low STR, meaning his Fortitude save is low), but maybe he's not, and it makes a big difference.

(Of course, this logic only applies to single-target spells. AoE is another thing entirely.)

Also, this increases the mean saves of the Wizard, Sorcerer, STR-heavy melee types, etc., since their prime stat now increases a save. The Wizard, especially, is more difficult; he's got a good Will save from his class levels, but his high INT also gives a decent Reflex save... all that's left is Fortitude, and if he's a +CON race (Dwarf, Gnome?) even that can be questionable.

 

[Spatzimaus]

When you say "Fortitude", I think "petrification", but you're right - disease and poison come up more.

Don't get me wrong. Fortitude's loaded with all kinds of nasty stuff. But by the time many of those are commonplace, you have access to +save items. At lower levels, Fortitude just seems like the most harmless of the three, since it's mostly limited to slow-acting, healable stuff like poison or disease.

By making Fort base on STR and CON, you effectively limit the good Fort save to the melee types, while making most casters have even WORSE Fort saves than before (some casters raise CON, but how many raise STR?). But that's okay.

 

[Sadrik]

I don't know. Personally I'm not sure I like the flat DC system, if only because it makes certain 1st-level spells much stronger. For instance, compare the 1st-level charm person to the 4th-level charm monster; in most campaigns 90% of your powerful enemies will be a "person", so the power difference between the two spells is more based on the +3 DC difference than anything else. The only thing that keeps a high-level Sorcerer from using charm person a half-dozen times per day to dominate high-level play is its low DC.

I agree with you on a certain level here. But also note though that this is similar to the psionic character adding more creature types to a spell for augmentation.

On the up side to a flat DC system you can forgo the levels and go with a "powers known list as opposed to a spell slots per level. Because in effect, a higher level spell is only a spell that you cant learn until a certain level. So, a sorcerer might be learns 8 spells at level 1 and then gains more as he levels up.

Also, changing it to simply how many spells you can prepare might be the way to go. A high level caster might prepare 15 spells a day. In this fashion it becomes very simple and you dont have a glut of low level spells just hanging around. The caster would always select their best effects, generally their highest level effects.

The same logic applies to the dominate spells, baleful polymorph, phantasmal killer, all of the Shadow spells... and to anything you apply metamagic to. If you've got fireball and Empower Spell, do you really need delayed blast fireball? Effectively, metamagics become twice as effective, because now you can use them to replace high-level spells without suffering the save DC loss.
Basically, I think you'd need to adjust the levels of many low-level spells to keep things balanced, and I'm not sure the result is worth the effort.

Some spells could or should be shifted up a level so they can only access those powers at a higher level. Does meta-magic make this a problem? I will have to think about it some more. My gut response to it is- big deal. But maybe I am missing something.

The whole idea of having the saves not advance with level was based on two things:
1. A character who drinks a lot of alcohol at 1st level should get drunk just as easily as a high level character. I mean really a 20th level character should not have 20 shots and then accidentally roll a 1. Fortitude saves should be con checks similar to breaking down a door is a strength check. Please no one try and convince me otherwise on this.
2. Multiclassing benefits are out of control. I also dont need any convincing on this either.