Changing the high-level fighter

[Terraism]

(Yup. Another "fighter's are underpowered after about level eight" thread. I'm going to be working from that perspective for the rest of this post, by the way.)

I think the best-known issue with fighters is the fact that, while they get a large number of feats - they're the "feat masters," as it were - there just aren't quite enough feats out there (in the core books, anyway,) for them to keep using those bonus feats at higher levels. Sure, they have more to take, but after they've gotten the feat tree devoted to their preferred fighting style, then what? They take a tree that's not quite as relevant, but still useful. Then less relevant, then... anyway. Getting back to that "feat master" thing. As I see it, fighters are supposed to be the best at straight-up combat. Barbarians are better at tearing through things, frothing at the mouth and doing insane amounts of damage. Paladins have divine backup. Rangers are tricksy little fellows. Fighters, on the other hand... well, they have a lot of feats. More than everyone else. What if they were better at them, too?

I've been trying to figure out a way to increase the power of fighters at higher-levels, while keeping it about the same early on, where they're just fine. And I keep coming back to the "feat master" idea. How crazy would something like this be?

Feat Mastery (Ex): Numerical effects and bonuses from feats on the list of fighter bonus feats are increased by +1 at 8th level, +2 at 12th level, +3 at 16th level, and +4 at 20th level.

Example 1:
- Normal: Joe is a 9th level fighter with a 14 Intelligence. He has has Combat Expertise, and sacrifices two points from his attack bonus to gain a +2 bonus to his AC until his next action.
- Changed: Because he has Feat Mastery (+1), he gains a +3 bonus to his AC.

Example 2:
- Normal: Joe is a 12th level fighter with Improved Disarm, giving him a +4 bonus to Disarm attempts.
- Changed: Because he has Feat Mastery (+2), he gains a +6 bonus to Disarm attempts.

Example 3:
- Normal: Cor is a 16th level fighter with a 19 Dexterity and Combat Reflexes. He may make four attacks of opportunity per round.
- Changed: With Feat Mastery (+3), he may make seven attacks of opportunity per round.

Now, I'm aware that this doesn't address the fact that the fighter is still lacking in some feat choices at higher levels, but it does (or seems to, anyway,) provide a bit of incentive for a character to take more than 4-8 levels of the class. And there are some places where it wouldn't quite work. (For one, with this change, I'd remove Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization - a fighter with the normal versions would be getting +5 to attacks and +7 to damage, and he doesn't need to double that.)

That said, what're the balance issues here? Is this a reasonable way of powering the class up? Or am I missing something that boosts them completely off the chart? I know that it's a little bit "more of the same," but at the very least, it's a pretty respectable level of more of the same.

 

[maggot]

Feat Mastery (Ex): Numerical effects and bonuses from feats on the list of fighter bonus feats are increased by +1 at 8th level, +2 at 12th level, +3 at 16th level, and +4 at 20th level.

I kind of like it. I would change it so the bonuses are gained at odd levels because they are already getting a feat at the levels you listed. Also, having Weapon Focus go from +1 to +2 is much more significant than having Improved Initiative go from +4 to +5 and that in turn is much more significant than having Power Attack for 11 go from +11 damage to +12 damage.

I'm not sure of the work around for that. Just thought I'd point it out.

 

[the Jester]

Interesting- I think I would prefer this as a fighter-only feat (or perhaps a series of feats?). Giving it as a 'freebie' seems a bit much for me, having used a high-level fighter npc in a nigh-epic party.

I disagree that fighters are underpowered at high levels; what they really need is lots more high-level feats. I try to address the problem by custom building lots more feats with good bennies and long lists of prereqs.

 

[Odysseus]

I disagree that fighters are underpowered at high levels; what they really need is lots more high-level feats. I try to address the problem by custom building lots more feats with good bennies and long lists of prereqs.

I'd agree with that. The fighters I've used at near epic level have need all those feats.
What i'd suggest is more feats that replace the fighters equipment dependancy.

 

[maggot]

How about this

Feat Mastery: At 8th level and every two levels after that, a fighter can choose to master a feat on the fighter list rather than take a new feat. A mastered feat provides double its normal bonus to the fighter. For example mastered Improved Initiative provides +8 to initiative checks, mastered Weapon Focus provides +2 to hit, and mastered Weapon Specialization provides +4 damage. The feat must be one that provides a static bonus to the fighter. So Combat Expertise, Power Attack, and Combat Reflexes cannot be mastered.

 

[Bront]

I usually can't get enough feats, and fighters need all the feats they can get.

Feat Master is very unbalanced. As written, if you use 2 weapon fighting, your -2/-2 eventualy becomes +2/+2. Weapon Focus goes up, making greater weapon focus useless, and weapon specialization goes up as well. Not to mention point blank shot, power attack, combat expertise, mutishot, rapid shot, ect...

You could end up giving someone a +12 effective to hit bonus simply for being 20th level and having that feat. WAY to powerful.

If you want something other than feats, take a PrC. There are plenty out there that are fun.

 

[Felnar]

bront has a good point
fighters arent underpowered at high levels cause they should just take a PrC

*sarcasm off*
- Felnar

 

[maggot]

bront has a good point
fighters arent underpowered at high levels cause they should just take a PrC

That's a good point, so it leads to this idea for a fighter ability:

Heroic Prestige: At 10th level, a fighter can take levels in any non-epic prestige class regardless of prerequisites.
Epic Prestige: At 20th level, a fighter can take levels in any epic prestige class regardless of prerequisites.

Now, finally a reason to become a high-level fighter.

 

[dungeon blaster]

That's a good point, so it leads to this idea for a fighter ability:

Heroic Prestige: At 10th level, a fighter can take levels in any non-epic prestige class regardless of prerequisites.
Epic Prestige: At 20th level, a fighter can take levels in any epic prestige class regardless of prerequisites.

Now, finally a reason to become a high-level fighter.

That makes no sense at all....and completely defeats the purpose of prestige classes..


You want fighters to be powerful at high levels? Give them some high level feats. Feats that give huge bonuses to saves, initiative, damage.

 

[Bront]

Felnar - Glad to see you missed the point of my comment. If that is what I had said, I would agree with your point.

maggot-
Ooh boy, I can be a fighter/Arcane trickster!

Oh... wait...

Interesting idea though, but a fighter, because of his feats, is able to get into most PrCs that don't have heavy skill requirements. The power could lead to odd combinations (like above). However, I think allowing a fighter to bypass a single skill requirement isn't too powerfull, and still prevents the fighter/archmage and such.

The other option, is add an additional skill point and allow the fighter to select 2 additional class skills of his choice. Makes the fighter a bit more well rounded, anb helps qualify for PrCs.