D&D 5E Channel Divinity: Sacred Weapon - Does the action to activate it make it weak?

[Blue]

I think there are a lot of situational times that it's good that ends up with it being a positive bonus.

Here's some off the top of my head.
1. Sometimes it doesn't take up an attack - like when the foe start more than one move away but less than two - you can move and activate.

2. If you are hasted, do it with your Haste action and you are only giving up one attack.

3. Up level opponents have different criteria. For example, if a foe has a high AC and you miss a lot, wasting one action to be able to hit regularly is likely worth it.

4. With a -5/+10 feat and a 20 CHR, it becomes -0/+10. Where does that math end up in missing an action?

5. Evaluating it in a vacuum is all we can do but not the full picture. Say the first round against tough opponents is "buff the pally" time and you beat your party with initiative. Missing an action for unbuffed attacks to later make the buffs you receive even more effective due to bonus to hit and damage may be worth it.

6. Say and average combat lasts 4 rounds. (Someone else said 3 and then more for harder.) If you have a 65% chance to hit and average 12 points per hit with 2 attacks, that's 15.6 per action for 62.4 total for four rounds. With +4 hit/damage you'd have 90% chance to hit for 12 points of damage with 2 attacks, that's 21.6 per action for 64.8 for three rounds. Huh, seems like it does more damage just off the cuff.

EDIT: @rczarnec corrected me that it only adds to hit, so I updated the examples above.

 

[Mort]

Actually, Vow of Enmity does work at range.

Vow's weakness vs. Sacred Weapon is that it only works on one enemy, and once it's dead, that's it. Sacred Weapon lasts against multiple foes.

Could swear it said melee attack, but yes you are correct!

 

[FrogReaver]

I think there are a lot of situational times that it's good that ends up with it being a positive bonus.

Here's some off the top of my head.
1. Sometimes it doesn't take up an attack - like when the foe start more than one move away but less than two - you can move and activate.

Yep

2. If you are hasted, do it with your Haste action and you are only giving up one attack.

I don't think you can use haste for channel divinity action can you?

3. Up level opponents have different criteria. For example, if a foe has a high AC and you miss a lot, wasting one action to be able to hit regularly (and with nice bonus damage) is likely worth it.

Better off just throwing more attacks at the enemy than giving up an action middle of combat to boost hit because you realize you are missing a little too often.

4. With a -5/+10 feat and a 20 CHR, it becomes -0/+15. Where does that math end up in missing an action?

So what a level 16 Character... Level 16+ characters make poor arguments

5. Evaluating it in a vacuum is all we can do but not the full picture. Say the first round against tough opponents is "buff the pally" time and you beat your party with initiative. Missing an action for unbuffed attacks to later make the buffs you receive even more effective due to bonus to hit and damage may be worth it.

Possibly a good use. If the party plans to buff you and you go before them then buffing yourself that first turn will prove advantageous.

6. Say and average combat lasts 4 rounds. (Someone else said 3 and then more for harder.) If you have a 65% chance to hit and average 12 points per hit with 2 attacks, that's 15.6 per action for 62.4 total for four rounds. With +4 hit/damage you'd have 90% chance to hit for 16 points of damge with 2 attacks, that's 28.8 per action for 86.4 for three rounds. Huh, seems like it does more damage just off the cuff.

Again with the level 16 characters???

Besides, you've left off the critical point - Damage Now > Damage later and you miss out on a lot of damage now because in a scenario where you might want to buff then you'll want to smite as well. So yea, you might come out a little higher by the end of the fight, of course the damage now PC might have already ended the fight in 2 to 3 rounds instead of 4...

 

[Blue]

I think you missed the point of lots of infrequent times adding up to a reasonable use rate.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think you missed the point of lots of infrequent times adding up to a reasonable use rate.

Why are you talking to me as if I think that it's a bad channel divinity? I think it's very strong and situations arise often enough to make it on average be useful - while also believing that most any buff attempted on the ability would make it Overpowered.

What I also think is that your post was counterproductive because it used weak points in argument for the position.

 

[Mort]

Okay, so I dug down into what's bothering me about it more, by looking at every published paladin subclass so far.

Some other subclasses have situational Channel Divinity features, but every other subclass has at least one non-situational, bread and butter ability you will be using regularly in the situation of "combat". Both of the Oath of Devotion's Channel Divinity features are situational.

I've been playing a devotion paladin (currently level 6). The power is not that situational. As long as you know a fight is coming up it works just fine.

The group I'm in also has a vengeance paladin, I haven't felt like I've been lagging behind.

Especially because most of the time the DM throws groups at us - my channel divinity is better on groups.

I also did math. Assuming you don't need the magical weapon element to overcome damage resistance (a pretty good assumption for a paladin in most campaigns starting somewhere around mid-level) it will take 4-5 rounds for the buff to pay off in damage output. Running into a fight that you can reliably predict will go 4-5 rounds 1/short rest is pretty situational in my experience.

The other situation is setting up ambushes. Again, this isn't something you can reliably assume you can pull off, especially with the Stealth Disadvantage you probably have from heavy armor, though at least if you fail to pull it off you don't blow your Channel Divinity. But while it isn't an oath violation, there is something thematically wrong about having a signature ability of the classic paladin most reliably trigger when ambushing foes.

Maybe it's because our DM routinely over CRs our combats but our fights tend to run on the long side, maybe it's an outlier.

That said, again I really haven't felt any problems keeping up with the vengeance paladin.

Since it isn't a spell, you can still cast a bonus action spell when you use this. So I started looking at bonus action spells to see if there was anything that you would substantially benefit from casting on your first round. About the only one that I was seeing was compelled duel. Now, activating Sacred Weapon and casting compelled duel for your first round is pretty cool, no denying that. But it uses up a spell slot, requires committing to a certain strategy that you shouldn't have to commit to, and it's still situational.

What about shield of faith? Also a bonus action so can be done in the same round, worthwhile if you plan to wade into combat.

Or divine favor? Also can be cast in the same round, and a decent bump to future damage.

So that's what it comes down to--they need a non-situational Channel Divinity feature to be on par with other paladins.

The obvious solution is to make Sacred Weapon a bonus action, and since (unless I'm mistaken), Oath of Devotion is generally considered the weakest PHB paladin subclass, I'll probably go with that. But I don't really like it because the paladin class in 5e is a strong class as it is and none of the subclasses need buffs, and because that makes it stronger than Oath of Enmity, which is otherwise similar.

Any obvious mistakes in that analysis? Any suggestions for better ways to fix the feature?

I'll dispute the premise that devotion paladins are the weakest. Or that the feature needs fixing.

Sacred weapon needs some more thought than vow of enmity - but has enough significant advantages (multiple targets, stacks with advantage) to balance it out.

Making sacred weapon a bonus action puts it over the top, and unnecessarily so.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

IT is an ability you only use in Hard Fights.
And since you only have one use per Rest that is ok. Yes you might give up 2 attack, but most probably there is always a situation where you can sneak it in.
When you think about how bless is rated, this ability should be rated well too. It might result in twice the bonus. You also need to consider that vow of enmity gives advantage which you might get otherwise too. So it might net in no advantage at all.
In the end, bonus action for the sacred weapon might be ok, but it becomes less interesting.

 

[Blue]

What I also think is that your post was counterproductive because it used weak points in argument for the position.

I respect that you are trying to keep posts honest even when they support your point of view, but please listen to the point I am making. Let me try it in a different way: Quantity has it's own Quality.

Every situational ways that it is strong adds a bit more to saying it's a good feature. It does not matter that they are individually weak, they are cumulative.

 

[Blue]

An additional situational usage: it can add to a ranged weapon. So when an encounter has no way to close, it can make the likely-low-DEX paladin actually able to contribute with a bow.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I would consider sacred weapon to be one of the stronger channel divinity options. I'm currently a level 9 devotion paladin and while I don't use it as often as I should in the fights where I do use it it proves to be very useful. A single action to not miss the rest of the fight is good.

If I were to adjust anything on the devotion paladin it would be tweaking the spell list. Most of the spells are either already on the paladin spell list or just very lack luster.