D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

Why not hold back the Succubus scenario until the pc's can actually resolve it? Why not do the goblin scenario first and then the Succubus one. Would be a lot less frustrating for the players and now they don't have to try to read the dm's mind as to whether or not the current scenario is resolvable.

I get bored with the concept that you just 'happen' to always do things that are at the right 'level' for your party. You may call that 'focused' but I call it predictable and boring.

I want the chance that the creatures are way too powerful, I want to discover the evil dragon/lich/hobgoblin army that is too powerful. It is either an encounter that we need to think to avoid, or it is a goal we need to work towards defeating sometime later.

When Luke landed on the deathstar, he wasn't able to just kill Vader and blow up the space station. They had to think of an alternative way to deal with the station, and he had to 'level up' quite a bit before being ready to even try and deal with Vader.

I had a campaign where the PCs got clues to a hidden ruin with treasure. When they got there they found a guardian spirit, they kept killing it, and it kept getting stronger and coming back.... they eventually realized they could not defeat it and had to run. Their fighting retreat/rout was a great and memorable chase, and they barely got away.
They then had a goal, to get better at their classes so they could come back and defeat that spirit and gather the treasure. (which had a specific item they needed for a long term goal they had)

Literature and movies etc are filled with situations where the 'good guy' was not quite up to defeating the challenge. So he had to go away and get more friends, or more information, or more powerful, or better evidence, or better positioning, or whatever.... in order to defeat the challenge. It adds to the anticipation and the joy of finally defeating that challenge.
 

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No slight on anyone intended, but in my experience most DMs are not too great at designing and running mystery scenarios, myself included at one point. The system itself doesn't really help out much either. Professional designers are not immune from this and most of the ones I've read or played involve the PCs wandering around interviewing quirky, cagey NPCs until someone gets frustrated and starts cracking skulls. The general lack of tension and conflict in these scenes just kills the mood and pacing. It's often like guessing at answers to a riddle while the DM sits back and says, "Nope, keep guessing."

So it takes a bit of skill both in setting it up and running it to make it work well in a way that engages even those players that say they hate mystery scenarios. To that end, check out this article on creating and running mysteries and maybe it will be of some help. (Not my blog.)
 

No slight on anyone intended, but in my experience most DMs are not too great at designing and running mystery scenarios, myself included at one point. The system itself doesn't really help out much either. Professional designers are not immune from this and most of the ones I've read or played involve the PCs wandering around interviewing quirky, cagey NPCs until someone gets frustrated and starts cracking skulls. The general lack of tension and conflict in these scenes just kills the mood and pacing. It's often like guessing at answers to a riddle while the DM sits back and says, "Nope, keep guessing."

So it takes a bit of skill both in setting it up and running it to make it work well in a way that engages even those players that say they hate mystery scenarios. To that end, check out this article on creating and running mysteries and maybe it will be of some help. (Not my blog.)

Good post and on the money.

"Mysteries" that manifest at the table as rote SoPs (in this case involving spellcasters and excluding, or at least marginalizing, mundane investigatory approaches), uncovering expository dialogue plot dumps, or rely on reading esoteric, GM-contrived, Sherlock Holmesian-trope, tea leafs (that to the GM feels masterfully and organically intertwined within the system's play procedures/resolution mechanics...while the players might be left scratching their heads as to just what this guy behind the screen is on about...and why they should bite/care...) often carry little, or none, of the feel/thrill inherent to partaking in the cinematic, literary, or boardgame versions of trying to unravel a mystery.

It takes a considerable amount of skill to pull mysteries off as a GM (typically requiring very sound prep and reliance on some aspect of the metagame) so I'm mostly sympathetic to the player-side of things here. The vast majority of the time when a team fails at Pictionary or Charades, it is because the person at the board drawing/pantomiming the concept either couldn't think of a way to subtly, nonverbally convey it or they did a terrible job of doing so, leaving his/her teammates floundering well off the beaten path on some wild goose chase.
 

A good way to avoid PCs defaulting to cracking skulls when they don't figure out the meaning of clues is to make the NPCs have guards who are much higher level than the PCs, or the NPCs themselves aren't really defeatable in combat easily, or perhaps even trying to start fighting them would have the entire king's army after you.

I read some of the posts by Majoru about his metagaming 4th ed player and it reminds me of a campaign I played last year where two of the players were so used to playing D&D as it was expected of them in 4e modules, that they didn't realize D&D could be played another way. Metagaming is explicitly banned at my table and it is bad form to even try to use it covertly, forget about using "I open the lock using arcana" type arguments. To be fair, 4th edition adventures were designed that way, so it's not unexpected for people only accustomed to that game to try to keep playing that way in a non-4e game. I would start off with a quick explanation of what metagaming is, what it isn't, why it's bad for the game and for player immersion, and if that doesn't work I would start doling out XP rewards or penalties or inspiration points for going through an entire session without metagaming. Maybe begin with that. A carrot is nicer than a stick. But eventually I'm sorry to say, a stick might be required. In our case, the 4e player was simply not happy playing 5e with totally different base assumptions about what the essential nature of roleplaying is for many people, and he quit out of frustration with the DM who would sometimes suppress player abilities if they did not seem possible to pull off or work at all.

It's a question of player entitlement versus DM entitlement. Metagaming is player entitlement run amock, but it's part of a larger issue which is, do the rules matter more or does the DM's fiat matter more? I waver on exactly where that line is, I much prefer to play by RAW most of the time as I think DMs have plenty of tools at their disposal even within the confines of strict RAW playing to make rulings, and besides that many DMs aren't very good at making effective house rules and sometimes their rulings stink too. I actually agreed some of the time with the 4e player who didn't like arbitrarily having his abilities not work, but that was more a question that I felt the circumstances didn't call for such a heavy handed ruling. And sometimes it's better for a DM to tell a player what the scenario looks like in mechanical terms like "you won't be able to try and hide in this room anywhere, it's too bright and there's no cover", or you can't use a polearm in this narrow 5 foot corridor to make an attack with the butt end of the weapon when the enemies are only in front of you. There are plenty of logical places to make rulings, but player entitlement is often founded on powergaming at the expense of good faith interpretation of the scenario at hand, and DM fiat is one of the cornerstones of this edition.

Most people are very happy with 5th edition as a result of this sea change in mentality. RAW plays plenty well in 5th ed without being heavy handed in rulings most of the time. Many times DMs have had to bypass RAW to overcome unbalances in the rules or player abilities, and it's great that they don't have to do that as much in this edition to make an adventure not be a cakewalk for PCs. That's just as bad as an unwinnable adventure.

It's really a question of maturity, if players are used to playing videogames with exploitable rules and getting away with it, and bringing that to a table with a human DM who will invariably get annoyed at this type of antic, then that player is probably going to create issues beyond that when they don't get their way or if their character dies. I just don't play with such people. The first question I ask new players is, do you expect DMs to fudge rolls to prevent your PC from dying due to combat? If the answer is yes, I don't want them. I have better things to do than fudge dice rolls to protect people's precious 5 minutes they took to write up their character. If you spend a huge amount of time writing a backstory for a first level character and they get smoked in the first session, that's too bad. Lesson learned. Make a new character, and don't waste so much time filling in blanks that might never come up.
 

A good way to avoid PCs defaulting to cracking skulls when they don't figure out the meaning of clues is to make the NPCs have guards who are much higher level than the PCs, or the NPCs themselves aren't really defeatable in combat easily, or perhaps even trying to start fighting them would have the entire king's army after you.

Or I can design and run mysteries that are engaging and exciting enough that fighting guards is seen as less interesting than trying to solve the mystery. Making unbeatable enemies just seems like addressing the symptom, not the underlying problem. The symptom is a PC lashing out to create some action, tension, and excitement. The cause is a lack of action, tension, and excitement which is easily fixed on the DM's end.

I read some of the posts by Majoru about his metagaming 4th ed player and it reminds me of a campaign I played last year where two of the players were so used to playing D&D as it was expected of them in 4e modules, that they didn't realize D&D could be played another way. Metagaming is explicitly banned at my table and it is bad form to even try to use it covertly, forget about using "I open the lock using arcana" type arguments. To be fair, 4th edition adventures were designed that way, so it's not unexpected for people only accustomed to that game to try to keep playing that way in a non-4e game. I would start off with a quick explanation of what metagaming is, what it isn't, why it's bad for the game and for player immersion, and if that doesn't work I would start doling out XP rewards or penalties or inspiration points for going through an entire session without metagaming. Maybe begin with that. A carrot is nicer than a stick. But eventually I'm sorry to say, a stick might be required. In our case, the 4e player was simply not happy playing 5e with totally different base assumptions about what the essential nature of roleplaying is for many people, and he quit out of frustration with the DM who would sometimes suppress player abilities if they did not seem possible to pull off or work at all.

It's a question of player entitlement versus DM entitlement. Metagaming is player entitlement run amock, but it's part of a larger issue which is, do the rules matter more or does the DM's fiat matter more? I waver on exactly where that line is, I much prefer to play by RAW most of the time as I think DMs have plenty of tools at their disposal even within the confines of strict RAW playing to make rulings, and besides that many DMs aren't very good at making effective house rules and sometimes their rulings stink too. I actually agreed some of the time with the 4e player who didn't like arbitrarily having his abilities not work, but that was more a question that I felt the circumstances didn't call for such a heavy handed ruling. And sometimes it's better for a DM to tell a player what the scenario looks like in mechanical terms like "you won't be able to try and hide in this room anywhere, it's too bright and there's no cover", or you can't use a polearm in this narrow 5 foot corridor to make an attack with the butt end of the weapon when the enemies are only in front of you. There are plenty of logical places to make rulings, but player entitlement is often founded on powergaming at the expense of good faith interpretation of the scenario at hand, and DM fiat is one of the cornerstones of this edition.

Most people are very happy with 5th edition as a result of this sea change in mentality. RAW plays plenty well in 5th ed without being heavy handed in rulings most of the time. Many times DMs have had to bypass RAW to overcome unbalances in the rules or player abilities, and it's great that they don't have to do that as much in this edition to make an adventure not be a cakewalk for PCs. That's just as bad as an unwinnable adventure.

It's really a question of maturity, if players are used to playing videogames with exploitable rules and getting away with it, and bringing that to a table with a human DM who will invariably get annoyed at this type of antic, then that player is probably going to create issues beyond that when they don't get their way or if their character dies. I just don't play with such people. The first question I ask new players is, do you expect DMs to fudge rolls to prevent your PC from dying due to combat? If the answer is yes, I don't want them. I have better things to do than fudge dice rolls to protect people's precious 5 minutes they took to write up their character. If you spend a huge amount of time writing a backstory for a first level character and they get smoked in the first session, that's too bad. Lesson learned. Make a new character, and don't waste so much time filling in blanks that might never come up.

You've certainly hit all the usual loaded buzzwords and made all the expected blanket statements. I'll just say that in general, I disagree with your assessment. I see what some people call "metagaming" as good when it helps the group achieve the goals of play and bad when it doesn't. Just like anything else.
 

But, the only reason it's not resolvable is entirely artificial. It's not that the players did something wrong and so had to spend more time. They did everything right but had no chance to succeed until they go through the metagame process of levelling up.

Making every situation resolvable would be artificial as well, if for no other reason than every situation is artificial. How is being able to deal with it now really any less artificial than later? They've got their suspicions but do they have anything they can really do about them yet? No. Maybe they should bide their time or cultivate an ally with more resources that can deal with it.

Why not hold back the Succubus scenario until the pc's can actually resolve it? Why not do the goblin scenario first and then the Succubus one. Would be a lot less frustrating for the players and now they don't have to try to read the dm's mind as to whether or not the current scenario is resolvable.

Should absolutely everything be keyed to the PCs' current capabilities and resources? I don't think so. That's not a very believable setting.
 

No slight on anyone intended, but in my experience most DMs are not too great at designing and running mystery scenarios, myself included at one point. The system itself doesn't really help out much either. Professional designers are not immune from this and most of the ones I've read or played involve the PCs wandering around interviewing quirky, cagey NPCs until someone gets frustrated and starts cracking skulls. The general lack of tension and conflict in these scenes just kills the mood and pacing. It's often like guessing at answers to a riddle while the DM sits back and says, "Nope, keep guessing."

I think that's why mysteries ate best kept in the background. I give my PCs bonus XP when the player (not necessarily PC) solves a mystery--but since these mysteries are mostly fluff (like "what happened to the guy who wrote the diary?" in the Noble Rot) I don't have to feel bad when I say, "Nope. That's not it." Instead of dead-ending on a mystery, the players can continue to pursue personal goals like "earn enough money to research new spells" and only try to solve old mysteries when they stumble over new data--or even ignore mysteries entirely if they prefer.

That is, after all, how we respond to mysteries in life such as missing Malayian airline flights. Speculation, curiosity, then loss of interest.
 

Making every situation resolvable would be artificial as well, if for no other reason than every situation is artificial. How is being able to deal with it now really any less artificial than later? They've got their suspicions but do they have anything they can really do about them yet? No. Maybe they should bide their time or cultivate an ally with more resources that can deal with it.



Should absolutely everything be keyed to the PCs' current capabilities and resources? I don't think so. That's not a very believable setting.

You don't run White Plume Mountain for 1st level characters do you? You don't bomb ancient dragons on those characters either.

So why bomb an unwinnable scenario on them now when you can hold off a couple of levels and save everyone at the table the frustration of trying to read the dm's mind if this particular scenario is resolvable or not

And note that having the capability does not guarantee success. A 9th level party could still fail to explore White Plume Mountain after all. My point is why bother setting scenarios with no chance of success when all you have to do is change the order.
 
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You don't run White Plume Mountain for 1st level characters do you? You don't bomb ancient dragons on those characters either.

So why bomb an unwinnable scenario on them now when you can hold off a couple of levels and save everyone at the table the frustration of trying to read the dm's mind if this particular scenario is resolvable or not

And note that having the capability does not guarantee success. A 9th level party could still fail to explore White Plume Mountain after all. My point is why bother setting scenarios with no chance of success when all you have to do is change the order.

Playing off this post: I make an effort to be fairly clear about where things are in my world, where the current questline will take you in relation to that and what some of your options are along the way. It's possible you may find some small farming town being ravaged by a rather bored and hungry ancient red dragon. There are still things you can do here at level 1 besides engage the dragon, such as help the townfolk escape, rescue people from burning buildings and help clean up in the aftermath.

To quote some guy from the military:
My game has known knowns: the general "danger level" of any given area, which is fairly accessible information.
My game has known unknowns: dangerous areas of the world which little is known about, ie: the classic many have gone, none have returned!
My game has unknown unknowns: dungeon locations and their content.

If players are willing to take risks, they will get better rewards. If players are going to be stupid, they're going to die. I'm NEVER going to put my players in a position where their only choice is to be stupid.
 

And just to build off of the Star Wars example earlier. When Luke first enters the Death Star, his goal isn't to confront Vader or destroy the Death Star. His first goal is escape. Then his goal becomes rescue the Princess. He doesn't actually even meet Vader, nor does he face any insurmountable challenges that would require him to come back later. His challenges are difficult and exciting, and mostly involve running the hell away, which is fine. But, running away is a perfectly valid option and is presented as such. They aren't there to do anything that is beyond their capabilities.

And, again, just to be perfectly clear, just because the group of PC's has the capability to succeed, does not mean that they will always succeed. Failure should always been an option. However, failure because you had zero chance of success is not something I want to play in.
 

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