character point buy system

messy

Explorer
hiya,

two questions about character classes:

1. in the generic class option of dnd 3.5, the warrior and expert don't seem terribly well balanced. the warrior's strengths are d10 hit points, strong bab, lots of weapon and armor proficiency, and many bonus feats. the expert's strengths are two strong saves and many skill points. are these generic classes balanced?

2. is there a system (preferably d20) that breaks class creation down even further? for example, players start with a certain number of points and can "buy" different class features using those points (sorta like the ability score point-buy system).

thank you.
 

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1. in the generic class option of dnd 3.5, the warrior and expert don't seem terribly well balanced.
I don't think any of the stuff from Unearthed Arcana was balanced. I know many players think (or thought) highly of it, but I just consider it a jumble of half-baked ideas. IIRC, UA also wasn't really 3.5. There were some neat ideas in it, but they all required more design work to make them really fit for use in a regular 3.5 campaign.
2. is there a system (preferably d20) that breaks class creation down even further? for example, players start with a certain number of points and can "buy" different class features using those points (sorta like the ability score point-buy system).
Nothing official. I have a pdf that detailed such a system, but it didn't take me more than a couple of hours to break it.
 

I don't think any of the stuff from Unearthed Arcana was balanced.

Oh, I'm sure some of it is balanced, but that's more by accident than design. But, in the context of that book, that's a feature rather than a bug - the book is after all intended as a big grab-bag of ideas to be used or not as the table decides.
 

found what i'm looking for!

anyone have experience with this?

is there a pathfinder update or equivalent?

i can finally have the character i want, with the hit dice, base attack bonus, skills, weapon proficiencies, uncanny dodge, and fast movement of a barbarian; the saving throws and wisdom bonus to armor class of a monk; the evasion and sneak attack of a rogue; and the spellcasting of a bard. :D
 

messy, I personally think that the best d20-based point-buy system is Eclipse: The Codex Persona. It's free, and incredibly flexible.

Also, there are a plethora of examples available over on the author's blog (and on mine too, found in my sig below, for that matter).

For some examples as to how this can be used to break down the existing classes, check out its listings for the 3.5 fighter and the Pathfinder fighter using Eclipse.

EDIT: And, for that matter, my own conversion of the D&D (Basic) Fifth Edition fighter over on my blog.
 
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i can finally have the character i want, with the hit dice, base attack bonus, skills, weapon proficiencies, uncanny dodge, and fast movement of a barbarian; the saving throws and wisdom bonus to armor class of a monk; the evasion and sneak attack of a rogue; and the spellcasting of a bard. :D

So just for the heck of it, I went through and calculated what a character like this would cost in Eclipse. Here's what I found, if we looked at the character at 20th level, taking all of the above into account:

A character earns 24 Character Points (CP) per level, including at level 0. As such, a 20th level character has 504 CP to spend:

Basics
20d12 Hit Dice: 160 CP (that's 8 CP per d12).
+20 BAB: 120 CP (that's 6 CP per +1).
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12 108 CP (that's 3 CP per +1 for each save).
80 Skill Points: 80 CP (that's 1 CP per skill point; note that this is for the barbarian's 4 skill points per level - the skill points from your Int. bonus are free).
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons (9 CP).

Special Abilities
Uncanny Dodge: Awareness (6 CP).
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Flankless modifier to Awareness (6 CP, specialized for one-half cost/does not function against opponents 4 or more levels higher than you; 3 CP total).
Fast Movement: Celerity (6 CP).
Wis bonus to AC: Augmented Bonus with the Improved modifier (12 CP, corrupted for two-thirds cost/does not apply while wearing armor; 8 CP total).
Evasion: Fortune/evasion (6 CP).
Improved Evasion: Improved modifier to Fortune (6 CP).
Sneak Attack: Augment Attack +10d6 (30 CP).
20 caster levels (120 CP, specialized for one-half cost/only applies to bard magic progression; 60 CP total).
20 levels bard magic progression (100 CP).

That comes to a grand total of 702 CP, far and away more than you've been alloted for a 20th-level character!

In fact, that's not surprising; you're taking the best of almost all of the basic building blocks of a character - a very large Hit Die, +1 BAB every level, high save progression for all three saves, and a considerable number of skill points - and then piling on several special abilities that have not-inconsiderable costs due to a progression rate (mostly the bard's two-thirds spellcasting progression, but also the sneak attack damage). The handful of single-purchase abilities (such as fast movement or evasion), don't make that much difference, but they don't help either.

Now, there are ways to earn more CPs (for instance, the feat you earn at every odd-numbered level in Pathfinder - or every third level in 3.5 - isn't accounted for here; that feat is basically 6 free CPs), but you'd be better off trimming back your build somewhat, so that it's not quite such an overpowered mix of barbarian, bard, and monk all melded together.

EDIT: Whoops, you only said you wanted the weapon proficiencies - I've removed the cost of the armor and shield proficiencies from the above totals.
 
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So just for the heck of it, I went through and calculated what a character like this would cost in Eclipse. Here's what I found, if we looked at the character at 20th level, taking all of the above into account:

nice work. :D

That comes to a grand total of 702 CP, far and away more than you've been alloted for a 20th-level character!

ah, but you included some other things i didn't mention, like improved uncanny dodge (6 cp) and improved evasion (6 cp), but that's still 690 cp.

In fact, that's not surprising; you're taking the best of almost all of the basic building blocks of a character - a very large Hit Die, +1 BAB every level, high save progression for all three saves, and a considerable number of skill points - and then piling on several special abilities that have not-inconsiderable costs due to a progression rate (mostly the bard's two-thirds spellcasting progression, but also the sneak attack damage). The handful of single-purchase abilities (such as fast movement or evasion), don't make that much difference, but they don't help either.

Now, there are ways to earn more CPs (for instance, the feat you earn at every odd-numbered level in Pathfinder - or every third level in 3.5 - isn't accounted for here; that feat is basically 6 free CPs), but you'd be better off trimming back your build somewhat, so that it's not quite such an overpowered mix of barbarian, bard, and monk all melded together.

it works using magecraft's system. :D
 

nice work. :D

Thanks. It was fun to do.

ah, but you included some other things i didn't mention, like improved uncanny dodge (6 cp) and improved evasion (6 cp), but that's still 690 cp.

I presumed that you meant to include the improved versions of those abilities as well; my mistake there. That said, it still only saves you 9 CP, since the improvement to uncanny dodge is only worth 3 CP due to the specialization that it fails against opponents four or more levels higher than you.


Does it? I'm skimming his system, but it seems highly complex; I'm having a hard time figuring it out.

That said, it can be made to work in Eclipse too (one of the main features of the system is that it's flexible enough to accomplish a particular result in multiple ways - it depends on what sort of character concept you have in mind (e.g. not just what they do, but how they do it), and what you and the GM can agree upon; no point-buy system should, in my opinion, ever be handed out carte blanche).

As it stands now, the build I posted above (minus the improvements to evasion and uncanny dodge) cost 693 CP, or 189 CP more than you have to spend in a 20-level build. So how can you fix that?

First, let's reduce the d12 Hit Dice down to d6 at each level. Since a d6 costs only 2 CP per level, that's a gross save of -120 CP. Since we don't want to lose out on the hit points though, let's buy Augmented Bonus, with the Improved and Advanced modifiers, which have a total cost of 18 CP altogether, so that you can apply your Strength bonus (in addition to your Con. bonus) to your hit points at each level. Since the average of a d12 is 6.5, and the average of a d6 is 3.5, you'll be able to make up the difference in hit points this way so long as you have a Strength of at least 16. That gives you net savings of -102 CP.

Next, let's cut those skill points in half, to 40 skill points spent, for a gross save of 40 CP. Now, take Fast Learner for a cost of 6 CP (which grants you 1 CP per level), and specialize it for double effect/may only be spent on skill points. You're now earning 2 skill points per level for free, which makes up the difference of those 40 you removed before. Now, take Adept for 6 CP, which lets you pick four skills, and buy ranks in them at half-price (e.g. one half skill point per rank; or alternately, two skill ranks per point spent). This essentially means you can pay 40 skill points for 80 ranks' worth of skills, so long as you keep it to the four skills you designated, for a total savings of another -40 CP. Of course, you're probably not going to choose to just max out four skills and not take any ranks in any other skills, so to be conservative we'll count this as -20 CP, and reduce the skill points you purchased directly to 20, costing you only 20 CP.

To summarize the above paragraph, you've reduced your direct skill point purchases from 80 to 20, and bought 12 CP of additional abilities, for net savings of -48 CP, even though you're earning the same number of skill ranks as you were previously.

Finally, let's take a role-playing restriction. Suppose your character learned his myriad skills because he was the Chosen One who trained directly under the tutelage of the Great Spirit of the Mountain. Of course, the Great Spirit didn't train you for nothing - he's expecting great things from you! That means that every so often, you'll have to perform quests, rituals, and various ardurous undertakings for him. This is represented by taking Duties, which grant you a free 2 CP per level, for net savings of -40 CP. (This is also part of the unspoken social contract between GMs and players when the players take a disadvantage, restriction, duty, or some other drawback for their character - the player agrees that this sort of thing is going to come up with a degree of regularity, while the GM agrees not to make it too onerous or burdensome; exactly where the line is is something that they'll have to work together to figure out.)

So 693 CP, with -190 CP worth of cost-savings, brings you down to a grand total of 503 CP, almost exactly on target!
 
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First, let's reduce the d12 Hit Dice down to d6 at each level. Since a d6 costs only 2 CP per level, that's a gross save of -120 CP. Since we don't want to lose out on the hit points though, let's buy Augmented Bonus, with the Improved and Advanced modifiers, which have a total cost of 18 CP altogether, so that you can apply your Strength bonus (in addition to your Con. bonus) to your hit points at each level. Since the average of a d12 is 6.5, and the average of a d6 is 3.5, you'll be able to make up the difference in hit points this way so long as you have a Strength of at least 16. That gives you net savings of -102 CP.

You are reminding me why I gave up on point buy systems.
 

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