character point buy system

[messy]

Okay, this is something I'll definitely want to look at in more detail over time. That said, that it's put bard spellcasting as being so much cheapter than d12 Hit Dice is rather suspicious, at least to me. Hit Dice are important - but to say that they're that much more important strains credibility.

if you think that's weird, check out the "mystical abilities" section of his system.

 

[messy]

I'm a little confused by your statement here - there's a lot of differences between the class you want, and Pathfinder's ninja. For example, the ninja doesn't have full BAB, it has only one good save, no spellcasting, etc.

i'm trying to make what i think the ninja "should" be.

or at least what i want it to be.

 

[was]

...The 'generic' warrior and expert classes in 3.5 are designed mainly for NPCs, particularly low-level ones and minions. They are not expected to be balanced when compared to the regular PC classes.
...The only time we used these classes in character generation was a house-ruled zero level consisting of one level in an NPC class.

 

[Alzrius]

if you think that's weird, check out the "mystical abilities" section of his system.

I'm presuming that most of these formulas are the author showing how these calculations were performed, and that you don't need to do this much computing to make a character with this system...right?

i'm trying to make what i think the ninja "should" be.

or at least what i want it to be.

No judgment here; your character definitely has the real ultimate power.

 

[Jhaelen]

...The 'generic' warrior and expert classes in 3.5 are designed mainly for NPCs, particularly low-level ones and minions. They are not expected to be balanced when compared to the regular PC classes.
...The only time we used these classes in character generation was a house-ruled zero level consisting of one level in an NPC class.

I think you are confusing the 3e npc classes with Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes. To quote from the introduction:

The three generic classes here—warrior, expert, and spellcaster—cover the common roles of a group of adventurers. (Despite sharing names with NPC classes, the warrior and expert presented here are very different from those classes.)

 

[messy]

I'm presuming that most of these formulas are the author showing how these calculations were performed, and that you don't need to do this much computing to make a character with this system...right?

yeah, you would hope so:

Mystical Ability: Spellcasting
Ability Cost is based upon the type of ability the Class has. Since the Bard casts arcane spells, we use the cost for Arcane spellcasting
which Table MA1 lists as 5 CP. We record this as the value for AbC.
Spells / Points Available is based upon how many spells the Class will be able to cast at 20th level. At 20th level, the Bard can cast 4
spells of each spell level (Even spell distribution). Adding all the levels together, it gives us an S/P value of 28, which we record.
This leaves only one value left to calculate, the Total Spell Multiplier (TSM). This value is actually made up of several values, so we
continue following the rules which state that all multipliers begin at 1. Therefore, our initial TSM is 1.00.
The Bard can only cast arcane spells of a non-direct damage nature. Because of this, the Bard’s Ability Type is considered Limited
Arcane. Table MA2 lists the multiplier for Limited Arcane spells as 1.5, so our TSM becomes 1.5 also (1.00 x 1.5 = 1.50).
The Bard spell list averages around 23 different spells per spell level. This falls between 20 and 30 arcane spells, so it classifies as a
Medium spell list. Table MA3 lists the multiplier for a Medium spell list as 0.65, so our TSM becomes 0.975 (1.50 x 0.65 = 0.975).
The Bard can cast his spells spontaneously, which the system classifies as Fast casting. Table MA4 lists the multiplier for Fast casting
as 1.15, so our TSM becomes 1.12 (0.975 x 1.15 = 1.12). Because of this, the Bard cannot prepare spells in advance and must increase the
casting time required to cast a metamagic spell.
The Bard has access to only a limited number of spells per spell level. At 20th level, the Bard has access to a number of spells that
qualifies as Reduced Knowledge (6/5/5/5/5/5/4, 6-1
st level spells = 1½ x # castable, 4-6
th level spells = 1 x # castable). Table MA5 lists the
multiplier for Reduced as 0.80, so our TSM becomes 0.897 (1.12 x 0.80 = 0.897). Because the Bard is limited in his knowledge of spells, he
does not require a spellbook or other means to regain his spells, he needs only to rest.
Although the Bard has access to spells at 1st level, he does not gain access to a 1st level spell until his 2nd Class level. Table MA6 lists
the multiplier for Class Level 2 as 0.90, so our TSM becomes 0.807 (0.897 x 0.90 = 0.807).
The Bard can only learn up to 6
th level spells. Table MA7 lists the multiplier for a Max Level of 6 as 0.70, so our TSM becomes 0.565
(0.807 x 0.70 = 0.565).
Because the Bard does not have a Psionic ability, we get to skip the Mode Multiplier section and our TSM remains unchanged.
The Bard is not initially granted the ability to cast a 1st level spell. For 1 level he only gains access to bonus spells. This qualifies as a 0-
Level of 1. Table MA9 lists the multiplier for 1 Level as 0.85, so our TSM becomes 0.48 (0.565 x 0.85 = 0.48).
We now have all of the pieces required to calculate the cost of spellcasting for the Bard. We have ended up with an AbC value of 5, an
S/P value of 28, and a TSM value of 0.48. Using the formula given, this gives us a cost for our Mystical Ability as 19 CP (0.48 x 28 = 13.44,
rounded up to 14, + 5 = 19 CP), which leaves us 196 CP for the rest of the Bard’s abilities.

easier to just take an existing spellcasting setup rather than trying to assemble your own. especially considering your observation that this system values d12 hit dice more than twice as much as bard spellcasting.

 

[Alzrius]

easier to just take an existing spellcasting setup rather than trying to assemble your own. especially considering your observation that this system values d12 hit dice more than twice as much as bard spellcasting.

The more I look at this particular methodology of class (de)construction, the more problematic I find it; it's not an issue of the inherent flexibility of point-buy systems being used to "unbalance" a game, but rather the way in which he determines the initial costs for various aspects of a character class.

From what I can tell, this is more of a method for auditing a given class; that it assigns a numerical value to various parts of a class that can then be used to construct a new class (as a 20-level whole, with virtually no level-by-level breakdown that I can tell) is something of a side effect.

I also question some of the decisions made in his formula, such as pricing a spell list differently whether it's arcane or divine (Table MA2: Ability Type), independent of any other concerns - the labels of "arcane" or "divine" magic have no real meaning to them, because the spell lists for every class are different anyway. The idea that "arcane magic is more expensive, because it offers a better spell list than divine magic (all else being equal)" is in reference to the way that things happened to shape up between the wizard and the cleric (and subsequent spellcasting classes), but that's a feature of how those specific classes were built, rather than an inherent feature of any gradation of arcane and divine spellcasting in and of themselves.

 

[messy]

The more I look at this particular methodology of class (de)construction, the more problematic I find it; it's not an issue of the inherent flexibility of point-buy systems being used to "unbalance" a game, but rather the way in which he determines the initial costs for various aspects of a character class.

maybe khepri's system works a bit better:

d12 hd (50 cp)
strong bab (50 cp)
all strong saves (35 cp)
barbarian's skill points and class skills (40 cp)
simple and martial weapons (25 cp)
sneak attack (15 cp)
fast movement (5 cp)
uncanny dodge/improved (15 cp)
evasion/improved (15 cp)

that's the 250 points khepri considers average, though he suggests 240 for custom classes.

note that this includes improved uncanny dodge and improved evasion. it also leaves out spellcasting and the wisdom bonus to armor class.

does this seem a little more reasonable?

 

[was]

I think you are confusing the 3e npc classes with Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes. To quote from the introduction:

Could be, I am looking at the ones presented on pg. 97 of the DMG

 

[Alzrius]

maybe khepri's system works a bit better:

d12 hd (50 cp)
strong bab (50 cp)
all strong saves (35 cp)
barbarian's skill points and class skills (40 cp)
simple and martial weapons (25 cp)
sneak attack (15 cp)
fast movement (5 cp)
uncanny dodge/improved (15 cp)
evasion/improved (15 cp)

that's the 250 points khepri considers average, though he suggests 240 for custom classes.

note that this includes improved uncanny dodge and improved evasion. it also leaves out spellcasting and the wisdom bonus to armor class.

does this seem a little more reasonable?

That looks quite a bit better. Eyeballing that, I'd say that it's slightly over the line of what's standard for a class, but only by a very small amount - enough so that you could probably get away with it (even moreso if you choose to drop the improvements to evasion and uncanny dodge).