Characters 1st level but the background is 5th

[DDK]

Ack! I forgot to mention a few things.

Heroism: You're not a damn hero yet! At first level, you can certainly have done some cool things, but geez, you're basically a runt. You've gotta get this through players heads before they go off and dream up all those romantic notions of their characters sheer brilliance

1st level is quite deep. There's plenty of room to give a rich character history. I was so happy to see 3rd ed. made a difference between 1st level and getting a level in a class later on. Use this differentiation! It takes a year or two to get 1st level, IMO. Slower if you're just taking things casually. I mean, an apprentice magician can easily go several years before learning the basics for 1st level, since most of the time all he's doing is sweeping that bastards floor and cooking his dinner!

But with a level in a new class above first, you simply don't get all the groovy stuff. Mainly this only pertains to skills, however it's enough to work with in a story to justify a rich character background for first level without requiring the same for a new class later on.

 

[Voadam]

If the d20 modern game is urban arcana or a horror background you could have a character who was high level but got level drained and so they have the experiences but not the power of the high levels.

 

[Celebrim]

Croathian: This is D&D's oldest and most enduring problem. It is I think the chief reason people move out of D&D, and I know that it is the chief reason RP orientated RPer's like my wife generally cite as the reason that they won't play D&D no matter the derivation. Being first level implies being young, just starting out, being at the start of ones adventures, and indeed having not had alot happen to you in your life.

Because of this, I'm considering whether a better designed ECL system and a more complex 'age' system could allow experienced characters to trade off early ability for quick development in long term campaigns. I don't know, maybe allow you to trade 3 years for each 1,000 starting experience or something like that. Or maybe impose 'rusty' penalties on skills so that experienced characters could start the game 'out of shape' - trading limited superiority for inflexibility in development.

I've also considered starting a campaign with 0 level characters, and having a series of loosely connected mini-adventures that represent shaping events in peoples lives (probably after discussing with the players separately and in private some of the things they want for thier background). However, to a large extent this involves me creating the PC's background, which isn't alot of fun. In any event, both ideas are as yet unrealized since I haven't had alot of time to run or start capaigns lately.

So, I don't have a system to fix the problem, other than going to GURPS (which works fine but has its own problems), but I am very aware of and troubled by the problem. I'm surprised you are only encountering it when you play D20 modern, but I guess most D&D players are used to not creating much in the way of background. BTW, for me V:tM's most endearing quality is it let you create characters with very very very deep sixteen page backgrounds and a full literary characters worth of motivations and experiences as starting characters. A really well written V:tM background has the property of making the reader cry. Of course, on the other hand, it made for alot of characters with 16 pages of ego stroking for a background.

 

[Celebrim]

fourecks: "since most of the time all he's doing is sweeping that bastards floor and cooking his dinner!"

I believe that is just the point, and not the solution.

 

[Crothian]

Croathian: This is D&D's oldest and most enduring problem. It is I think the chief reason people move out of D&D, and I know that it is the chief reason RP orientated RPer's like my wife generally cite as the reason that they won't play D&D no matter the derivation. Being first level implies being young, just starting out, being at the start of ones adventures, and indeed having not had alot happen to you in your life.

I think this is a problem across the board with role playing games, not just D&D. All games have characters start off at the traditional low level be it an actual low level of just low on points. And the problem is more with players then with the system I think, they just write up something to herioc for the type of character they are playing.

I'm just confused why anyone would thing people move away from the system becasue of this?

 

[Wicht]

This discussion is why I make sure that I, as a DM, have the final word in character background. I ask questions. Take notes. make suggestions. Hear what they want. Let them decide on orphan, family, etc. And then I take it home and spend a couple hours typing up a one page background myself based on the discussion. Solves a lot of problems and I make sure that 1) the character has the experiences of a 1st level character and 2) the character concept will somehow work with the rest of the party.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

So, is this is problem others have and is this really a problem?

It happens occasionally-

I either ask them to trim back the background, and will work with them to have the other parts come about during play.

Or I raise the starting level if their idea is really cool for me to play with.

SD

 

[Mort]

There is a fine line between background and baggage.

When I start a campaign (assuming it’s the typical start at first level kind) I ask players for a reasonably sized paragraph worth of background and no more. I’ve found that the “16 pages” of background just ads baggage to the campaign I don’t like to deal with (“Why haven’t we encountered Dirg the evil Necromancer I so carefully detailed on page 15 of my background, huh? Huh?).
I prefer for the PC’s (in most campaigns) to grow and develop along with the campaign and take their input during it. I don’t want my campaign bogged down before it even starts. Further, I’ve found that way too many players use “background” as an excuse to twink their character to high heaven and when confronted fall back on the “but It’s role-playing and character development” excuse.
As for the “why can’t I have an older character” question – well why can’t you? The trick is that that character will not be any more powerful for being older (your supposedly playing him for the roleplaying challenge not the benefits)– just give the guy a higher wisdom lower dex etc. and boom 50 year old. Skills can fall into place with DM’s approval etc. Look at Velendo in Piratecat’s campaign for the perfect example of a character started in Middle age.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm not necessarily talking about being 'heroic', much less 'super-heroic', much less character concept inspired by anime. I'm certainly not talking about characters doing ego stroking. But suppose you want to begin play as a retired mercenary. Not necessarily an elite badass, just an old man who has been around the block a couple of times and seen a few battles. You can twink stats all you want, and fiddle with the skill points, and you still don't have a character who is really any different mechanicswise from the character played by the player who is supposed to be a green 16 year old who never had killed anything more dangerous than a rabbit and has dreams of being a knight. Both are valid character concepts, and people like my wife, simply get disgusted by a system that can't match the concept to the stats and which to them is seen as constraining the imagination. My wife prefers a system in which character generation starts her mind working on what her character is like, or which if she has an idea for a character she can go shopping as it were for the elements that make up the character. While 3rd. Ed. is a huge step forward, and brought me back to the game, I still must admit that your more pigeonholed with 3rd. Ed. (not completely, just more) than some other systems. That isn't to say that a good player and a good ref can't overcome the limitations of any system, but after a while you get tired of doing so.

 

[Stalker0]

I think this is a problem across the board with role playing games, not just D&D. All games have characters start off at the traditional low level be it an actual low level of just low on points. And the problem is more with players then with the system I think, they just write up something to herioc for the type of character they are playing.

I'm just confused why anyone would thing people move away from the system becasue of this?

Its a problem with any rp system that uses levels as a basis for the game. And its a weakness that's very hard to get around. Your players want to have done all these cool things, but at 1st level, that just doesn't make sense.

Some of my friends also dislike dnd for this reason. However, they like it for a lot of other reasons, so we keep playing it.