D&D 5E Characters are not their statistics and abilities

[dave2008]

Go back to D and D's original 3 brown books. Read them and look at the sample dungeons therein (like Blackmoor's). It's a miniatures game turned into an individual combat game (in fact, ranges are indicated in inches), with the purpose of killing/circumventing stuff and getting treasure. Look at lost of the modules put out for first decade. The role-playing aspect generally consisted of some background....then you go in the dungeon, beat the guardians with a club over the head (or a garrote to the neck in the dark), get their loot, and eventually have enough to go buy a castle and retainers.

There is quite a difference between being combat oriented and power game oriented or that most players were/are power gamers. The post just above yours has a quote from Gygax in the AD&D PHB that makes it fairly clear that he did not think of D&D as power gamer oriented IMO.

 

[Willie the Duck]

with the purpose of killing/circumventing stuff and getting treasure.

You're putting killing and circumventing in the same bucket, whereas I don't think the people your talking to are doing the same.

 

[dave2008]

You're putting killing and circumventing in the same bucket, whereas I don't think the people your talking to are doing the same.

I agree, there is a big difference between killing stuff and circumventing stuff. I see how that viewpoint could be related to power gaming (killing), but I've never really thought of it that way. In theory I guess you could power game to make a PC really good a circumventing, but I agree that it appears to be a different mindset. But I'm not a power gamer so I'm, not sure of the motives to do it.

 

[Sunseeker]

I agree, there is a big difference between killing stuff and circumventing stuff. I see how that viewpoint could be related to power gaming (killing), but I've never really thought of it that way. In theory I guess you could power game to make a PC really good a circumventing, but I agree that it appears to be a different mindset. But I'm not a power gamer so I'm, not sure of the motives to do it.

It's called the skill-monkey rogue and it's been around for ages.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think this way of adjudicating the fiction raises other issues, like the rather complex interaction of D&D's attack and damage maths. Being "reckless" becomes a mathematical puzzle, rather than a straightforward contributor to my character's efforts in the fiction.

It's a mathematical puzzle that the DM (me) has already solved, in expectation of exactly such a contingency: it's almost always a DPR loss, but it does increase your damage when you do hit. That's exactly in line with what I find plausible for recklessly-aimed attacks in real life, like a guy furiously chopping at a zombie horde.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[UnknownDyson]

Why is it ridiculous?

If I turn up to play a team sport with you and don't bring my shorts and runners, you might reasonably be upset. If I turn up to play bridge with you and am drunk, you might reasonably be upset.

Not everyone plays D&D in that sort of spirit, but it's not ridiculous to do so, and hence not ridiculous to expect those who turn up to play to be ready to bring their best game.

I think this would particularly be the case in a pick-up game - if in doubt, at least bring a character who is mechanically competent.

I think that last post was littered with false equivalencies. At the end of the day, the noob who multi classed 3 times and doesn't have any ability scores maxed out at level 10 isn't going to inhibit you from playing your character in anyway. The noob might not know their way around an encounter or what abilities they "should" be picking but this post is operating under the assumption that the noob in question is still earnestly contributing. D&D doesn't need elitism, as long as the players have their character sheets, dice and are contributing, that should be good enough. In short, I still find the OP's claim to be ridiculous and please don't compare D&D to a sport.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

It's called the skill-monkey rogue and it's been around for ages.

"Really good at circumventing" and "skill monkey" or "skill monkey rogue" are not synonymous. You're confusing means and ends there. Aside from skill proficiencies, other tools that a good challenge-circumventer would want in his tool box include: high mobility (Mobile feat, Expeditious Retreat, Fly/wildshape), lots of ways to gather information (Arcane Eye, Voice of the Chain Master, wildshape), equipment (disguise kits, 10' poles, ropes, bear traps, caltrops, grease, sapping tools), social contacts (being owed a favor by the Captain of the Guard) and/or abilities (Panache, Modify Memory, Mass Suggestion), and money for bribes and hirelings.


The problem with relying completely on skill monkeying is that that only enables you to succeed at things that are achievable with a simple skill check.

 

[Sunseeker]

The difference (and where I differ in your sympathy with optimizers) is that while I do not begrudge optimizers their preference, I do note that there is a subgroup among them that feel that those who do not optimize are "playing it wrong." I believe that this is unhealthy for the game.

People of any strokes who think others who don't play/think/feel/game like them are therefore "playing wrong" are an unfortunate burden on gaming everywhere.

 

[Sunseeker]

"Really good at circumventing" and "skill monkey" or "skill monkey rogue" are not synonymous. You're confusing means and ends there. Aside from skill proficiencies, other tools that a good challenge-circumventer would want in his tool box include: high mobility (Mobile feat, Expeditious Retreat, Fly/wildshape), lots of ways to gather information (Arcane Eye, Voice of the Chain Master, wildshape), equipment (disguise kits, 10' poles, ropes, bear traps, caltrops, grease, sapping tools), social contacts (being owed a favor by the Captain of the Guard) and/or abilities (Panache, Modify Memory, Mass Suggestion), and money for bribes and hirelings.


The problem with relying completely on skill monkeying is that that only enables you to succeed at things that are achievable with a simple skill check.

A utility wizard or utility cleric also works. But I think you're missing the point I was trying to make in my response, was that optimizing for non-combat resolutions is just as possible and is indeed just as much a staple of D&D as optimizing for DPR.