Characters have huge ACs and low attack bonuses

Has anyone else had this problem, and how did you deal with it?
Accept that high level combat requires meaty & mighty monsters. NPC's at these level earn their CR by dragging out fights, using every drop if INT and WIS they have while having many mooks in front of them due to CHA. They pack concealment to effectively double their HP and burn through 1000 of gp’s in expendable magic items.
If the story calls for a barbarian warlord, he isn't suddenly going to decide "Hey, I should have a level of sorc to get True Strike," but he might realize "The warrior is fighting defensively, trying to parry every blow -- fine, I'll pummel that sword from his grip."
If the barbarian warlord thinks so one dimensionally he should have never made it to the warlord position. That attitude flies in Iron Heroes, not high level play in the magic rich setting of D&D. If multiclassing works for players, then it works for NPCs. “All Father Odin has shown me the great magical secrets to cut deeply into the hide of cowards who hide behind steel and sorcery” {True strike and a new splat spell of some type]. A well used staff, stylized to look like a giant king’s scepter{Fire or Frost] or the spear of Odin {evocation] should be included in his accouterments so he can hang back for a few rounds behind wall spells and divide the party.
Nail said:
The things that continued to give us trouble at high levels were huge monsters coupled with high CR Outsiders (demons, devils, etc). It sounds to me like your campaign could do this: there are plenty of demons in medieval literature to draw from.
An advanced devourer makes a fine foe. See my advanced monsters thread for more...

[Sblock=Delraich, soul devouring being of madness - Pseudonatural Version]


Size/Type: Large Undead (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 20d12 (130 hp) [140 high average HP]
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: *24 (-1 size, +15 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+23
Attack: Claw +18 melee (1d6+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +18 melee (1d6+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, trap essence, spell-like abilities, True strike
Special Qualities: Alternate form, darkvision 60 ft., DR10/Magic, resistance to acid and electricity 15, spell deflection, spell resistance 25, undead traits
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +15
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 10, Con Ø, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 18
Skills: Climb +25, Concentration +27, Diplomacy +5, Jump +25, Listen +26, Move Silently +23, Search +18, Sense Motive +19, Spot +26, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)
Feats: Blind-Fight[1st], Improved initiative [3rd], Combat Expertise[6th], Great fortitude[9th],Quicken spell like ability (Ghoul touch) [12th] Ability focus (trap essence)[15th] quicken spell like ability (confusion)[18th]
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 13-24 HD (Large); 25-36 HD (Huge)

Trapped soul; 3d4+3 levels [5 SLA uses per level, 5 uses become 1 negative level on the soul]
       
      

 Quickened Confusion SLA
 Quickened Ghoul Touch SLA
 Su: Attack with true strike benefit

The Delraich is a horror out of nightmares that seems only interested in absorbing souls into itself. Its behaviors and alternate form indicate it may have been a Devourer exposed to Far Realm corruption. Whether that was caused by it entering the Far Raelm through a tear in an outer plane or by it devouring a weaker creature of far realm remains to be divined.

The Delraich is about 14 feet tall and weighs 2000 pounds.

Delraich can speak Common.

Combat
Even if it had no special abilities, the Delraich would be a terrible opponent, for its bony claws can flay enemies alive.

Alternate Form (Su):
Due to the grotesque form of the Delraich, other creatures receive a –1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against it. As a standard action, the Delraich can assume the form of the extraplanar undead creature commonly known as a Devourer . Despite the slightly more terrestrial appearance, its abilities remain unchanged.

Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by the Delraich’s claw attack or spectral hand ability gain one negative level. The DC is 20 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Trap Essence (Su)
The Delraich is most feared for its ability to consume an enemy’s life essence. To do so, it must forgo its normal melee attacks and make a trap essence attack. This requires a normal attack roll [+18] but deals no damage. The affected creature must succeed a Fortitude save (DC 26) or die instantly. The save DC is Charisma-based. A slain creature’s essence is trapped within the Delraich’s form, and the victims face appears on the center of the Delraich’s chest. The trapped essence cannot be raised or resurrected, but a limited wish, miracle, or wish spell frees it, as does destroying the Delraich. The Delraich can hold only one essence at a time.

The trapped essence provides the Delraich with enough power to use five spell-like abilities for each Hit Die or level of the trapped creature. As this energy is expended, the face of the trapped soul slides away from the center of the chest. The trapped essence gains one negative level for every five times the Delraich uses one of its spell-like abilities. When the essence’s number of negative levels equals the creature’s total Hit Dice or level, the essence is drained irrevocably and the now soulless face trophy slides far enough from the center of the Delraich’s chest to make room for the next victim. If an essence is freed, the restored creature must succeed on a DC 24 Fortitude save for each negative level or lose that level permanently.

True Strike (Su):
Once per day, the Delraich can gain a +20 insight bonus on a single attack roll. In addition, the creature suffers no miss chance against a target that has concealment or total concealment when making this attack. It most often uses this when attempting a trap essence one it has been deprived of a trapped soul.

Spell-Like Abilities
At the start of any encounter, the trapped essence within the Delraich is assumed to have 3d4+3 levels (enough fuel for thirty to seventy-five uses). Once per round, the Delraich can use one of the following abilities: confusion (DC 18), control undead (DC 21), ghoul touch (DC 16), lesser planar ally, ray of enfeeblement, spectral hand, suggestion (DC 17), true seeing. Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spell Deflection (Su)
The trapped essence provides a measure of magical protection. If any of the following spells are cast at the Delraich and overcome its spell resistance, they affect the imprisoned essence instead: banishment, chaos hammer, confusion, crushing despair, detect thoughts, dispel evil, dominate person, fear, geas/quest, holy word, hypnotism, imprisonment, magic jar, maze, suggestion, trap the soul, or any form of charm or compulsion. In many cases, this deflection effectively neutralizes the spell. Some of these effects might eliminate the trapped essence, depriving the Delraich of its spell-like abilities until it can consume another victim.

Undead Traits:
Immune to mind affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. It is not subject to extra damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage to its physical ability scores, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or death from massive damage. It cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if it is willing. It has darkvision out to 60 feet. [/Sblock] [Sblock=Great Devourer, maximum advancment devourer]Size/Type: Huge Undead (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 36d12+32 (270hp) 288 high average
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 25 (-1 Dex, -2 size, +18 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+39
Attack: Claw +33 melee (1d8+16 crit.19-20x2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +33 melee (1d8+16 crit.19-20x2)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, trap essence, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., spell deflection, spell resistance 21, undead traits
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +23
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 8, Con Ø, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 17
Skills: Climb +30, Concentration +40, Diplomacy +24, Hide +10, Jump +30, Listen +30, Move Silently +24 , Search +20, Sense Motive +20, Spot +30, Survival +13 (+15 following tracks), Tumble +6 [CC & synergy]
Feats: Blind-Fight[1th], Combat Expertise[3th], Improved Initiative[6th], Improved Toughness[9th], Weapon Focus (claw) [12th], improved critical [Claw][15th], power attack [18th], quicken spell like ability (confusion)[21th], Improved trip, [24st], Improved Disarm 27th, Empower spell like ability (Ray of enfeeblement)[30th], quicken spell like ability (Ray of enfeeblement)[33rd], Great fortitude [36th ]
Great fortitude[9th],Quicken spell like ability (Ghoul touch) [12th]
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary plus planar allies.
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil

This huge devourer is about 25 feet tall and weighs 8000 pounds.

This ancient Devourer speaks Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elf, Giant, Githyanki, Infernal, Terran and one language of importance to plot.

Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a devourer’s claw attack or spectral hand ability gain one negative level. The DC is 29 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based.

If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained: -1 on all skill checks and ability checks, -1 on attack rolls and saving throws, -5 hit points. -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level). If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.


Trap Essence (Su)
The devourer is named for its ability to consume an enemy’s life essence. To do so, it must forgo its normal melee attacks and make a trap essence attack. This requires a normal attack roll but deals no damage. The affected creature must succeed a Fortitude save (DC 29) or die instantly. The save DC is Charisma-based. A slain creature’s essence is trapped within the devourer’s ribs, and the tiny figure takes on that victim’s features. The trapped essence cannot be raised or resurrected, but a limited wish, miracle, or wish spell frees it, as does destroying the devourer. A devourer can hold only one essence at a time.

The trapped essence provides a devourer with enough power to use five spell-like abilities for each Hit Die or level of the trapped creature. As this energy is expended, the twisted soul fades away until it evaporates completely. The trapped essence gains one negative level for every five times the devourer uses one of its spell-like abilities. When the essence’s number of negative levels equals the creature’s total Hit Dice or level, the essence is destroyed. If an essence is freed, the restored creature must succeed on a DC 29 Fortitude save for each negative level or lose that level permanently.

Spell-Like Abilities
At the start of any encounter, the trapped essence within a devourer is assumed to have 3d4+3 levels (enough fuel for thirty to seventy-five uses). Once per round, a devourer can use one of the following abilities: confusion (DC 17), control undead (DC 20), ghoul touch (DC 15), lesser planar ally, ray of enfeeblement, spectral hand, suggestion (DC 16), true seeing. Caster level 18th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spell Deflection (Su)
The trapped essence provides a measure of magical protection. If any of the following spells are cast at the devourer and overcome its spell resistance, they affect the imprisoned essence instead: banishment, chaos hammer, confusion, crushing despair, detect thoughts, dispel evil, dominate person, fear, geas/quest, holy word, hypnotism, imprisonment, magic jar, maze, suggestion, trap the soul, or any form of charm or compulsion. In many cases, this deflection effectively neutralizes the spell. Some of these effects might eliminate the trapped essence, depriving the devourer of its spell-like abilities until it can consume another victim.

Undead Traits:
Immune to mind affecting spells and abilities, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless. It is not subject to extra damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage to its physical ability scores, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or death from massive damage. It cannot be raised, and resurrection works only if it is willing. It has darkvision out to 60 feet.[/Sblock]
 

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Frank said:
This ancient Devourer speaks Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elf, Giant, Githyanki, Infernal, Terran and one language of importance to plot.

+10,000 points for including that little bit at the end.
 

I think the secret to this is to treat opponents as being their own sort of adventuring party. If you're running a medium sized group of classed humanoids at this point, you're talking about characters who are 14th to 16th level each. They're big darn heroes in their own right.

So start by thinking what a high level party would do in this situation to keep alive, and work from there.

First of all, a group of characters this high level is going to have magical and clerical support, whether that means either casters in the group, or access to buffing magic or magic items of their own. If you don't want to worry about a spellcaster as an NPC, I would make up about a half a dozen "buff cards" with spells that they would have either pre-cast or used from potions, wands and so forth. With that, you can easily get a total bonus to hit, damage, saves and note how much energy resistance they have.

Secondly, a high level group like that is going to know the tactics they need to use to survive in high level combat. They're going to know how to work as a team, using flanking, trip attacks, aid another and so forth.

Third, if you happen to have and like the book of 9 swords, make one of the characters a white raven user, and then watch as the party is slaughtered on the first round. :)

--Steve
 

frankthedm said:
An advanced devourer makes a fine foe. See my advanced monsters thread for more...
This man knows of what he speaks. :]

Thinking back more thoroughly on my high level play experience (DM and Player), I can't think of a time where a single classed, straight-up, LA +0 NPC ever caused grief or hardship. I'm not sure it can be done, really.

Your bad guys need to be nasty. Your bad guys can't just be "orcs with bigger clubs". If they are high level, then they must be strong enough to have gotten there. Multiclass, use PrCs, use buffing cohorts, use monster advancement, use strange monster templates.

There's just no other reasonable option.
 

Nail said:
Thinking back more thoroughly on my high level play experience (DM and Player), I can't think of a time where a single classed, straight-up, LA +0 NPC ever caused grief or hardship. I'm not sure it can be done, really.

Interesting. What levels are you speaking of and are you excluding spellcasters from that comment? I've only DMed up to 11th level in my Eberron game and single-classed LA +0 NPCs are still a threat and, in all likelihood, will remain a threat for a long time to come.

So I'm curious if I'm missing something that you've seen.
 

shilsen said:
Interesting. What levels are you speaking of and are you excluding spellcasters from that comment? I've only DMed up to 11th level in my Eberron game and single-classed LA +0 NPCs are still a threat and, in all likelihood, will remain a threat for a long time to come.

So I'm curious if I'm missing something that you've seen.
I was going to ask the same thing. Of course, LA +0 in Eberron includes Warforged, which are their own issue entirely, but even with Warforged aside, Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Psions have all been scary BBEGs and opponents in games that I've seen, and I don't think it's because my players are pansies at strategy.
 

Classed humanoids are under-cr'd.

Also, it's kind of silly to have all the humanoid enemies you fight simply scale with the PC level.

Anyways, for some silly low-level classed humanoid goodness, remember that you always hit on a natural 20. 32 CR 1/2 Human warriors with longbows is what, a CR 9 encounter? They don't even get XP for it, and, assuming that the warriors all stand at least 30 feet apart from one another, should be able to deal at least 12 hp of damage, right?

:p
 

interwyrm said:
Classed humanoids are under-cr'd.

Also, it's kind of silly to have all the humanoid enemies you fight simply scale with the PC level.

Anyways, for some silly low-level classed humanoid goodness, remember that you always hit on a natural 20. 32 CR 1/2 Human warriors with longbows is what, a CR 9 encounter? They don't even get XP for it, and, assuming that the warriors all stand at least 30 feet apart from one another, should be able to deal at least 12 hp of damage, right?

:p
You don't have to go that far. Since they're 17th lvl, they don't get XP for an encounter consisting of enemies of CR 9 or lower.

And 16 CR9 enemies would be an EL 17 encounter, which means one that the PCs should be able to win handily, using about 25% of their resources, with no chance of defeat.

In reality, that's not necessarily the case. I'm betting there are a lot of DMs on these boards who could create such an encounter, using only LA +0 humanoid NPCs, and put a very serious hurting on the PC group Gort has.
 

One other thing to consider--if you want to. Mixing outsiders with humanoids can have some really synergistic effects. I created one rather challenging encounter where an 8th level bard and a nalfeshnee, pretty much by themselves (well, OK there was an 18th level wizard who helped out with some greater magic weapon arrows) made a bunch of 6th level archers into a major threat. Unholy aura from the nalfeshnee gave the mooks SR, decent ACs, and made it a risk to attack them. The bard gave them some punch and upped their attack bonus to where they stood a chance to hit a lot of PCs (though not AC optimized PCs).
 

frankthedm said:
That attitude flies in Iron Heroes, not high level play in the magic rich setting of D&D.
The OP specifically mentions this being a homebrew that resembles medieval Europe (see: line 1). I'm not saying that it is exactly the same (Warmage and druid in the party and all) but having a warlord with some spells just seems a bit weird, IMO.

cheers,
--N
 

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