Characters have huge ACs and low attack bonuses

[Nail]

Interesting. What levels are you speaking of and are you excluding spellcasters from that comment? I've only DMed up to 11th level in my Eberron game and single-classed LA +0 NPCs are still a threat and, in all likelihood, will remain a threat for a long time to come.

So I'm curious if I'm missing something that you've seen.

As a player, I found classed LA +0 NPCs an "non-threat" after about level 12. I suppose to be completely fair, a CR "+4" BBEG was still a problem....for awhile.

 

[shilsen]

As a player, I found classed LA +0 NPCs an "non-threat" after about level 12. I suppose to be completely fair, a CR "+4" BBEG was still a problem....for awhile.

Really? Was the DM a little weak at running combat? I just had an arena duel IMC where three halflings (two 7th lvl and one 8th lvl) went up against three very buff, heavily overequipped 11th lvl PCs and scared the crap out of them. Took one PC down to -9, one down to teens, and if two of the PCs hadn't been druids able to cast Rejuvenating Cocoon (or the one druid able to keep functioning at negative hp), the halflings might have won. If it had been an ambush or I'd tweaked the halflings as much as I could have or just made them closer in level to the PCs, they would have won.

I seriously can't see why a tactically proficient DM shouldn't be able to challenge PCs with LA +0 classed NPCs at higher levels.

 

[interwyrm]

I seriously can't see why a tactically proficient DM shouldn't be able to challenge PCs with LA +0 classed NPCs at higher levels.

Prebuffing.

I'm considering starting every combat with an NPC wizard casting dispel magic.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Really? Was the DM a little weak at running combat? I just had an arena duel IMC where three halflings (two 7th lvl and one 8th lvl) went up against three very buff, heavily overequipped 11th lvl PCs and scared the crap out of them. Took one PC down to -9, one down to teens, and if two of the PCs hadn't been druids able to cast Rejuvenating Cocoon (or the one druid able to keep functioning at negative hp), the halflings might have won. If it had been an ambush or I'd tweaked the halflings as much as I could have or just made them closer in level to the PCs, they would have won.

I seriously can't see why a tactically proficient DM shouldn't be able to challenge PCs with LA +0 classed NPCs at higher levels.

I think that may be the opposite extreme, then, if lower level NPCs nearly won against an equal number o0f overequipped higher level PCs, wherein the GM is very strong, perhaps compared to the players. I do tend to see that equal-level NPCs are definitely a threat, however, and could very well win, though the PCs have a leg up due to items and usually prevail.

 

[Nail]

I seriously can't see why a tactically proficient DM shouldn't be able to challenge PCs with LA +0 classed NPCs at higher levels.

Sounds like I need to be in your game.



But even as a DM, and one that can optimize with the best of 'em, classed NPCs are typically much less of a threat for the CR. ...We are talking CR = APL, right? Your example of two 7th and one 8th level halflings calculates out to a EL 11....were there any other factors you're not telling us?

 

[Nail]

At 11th level here's the average wealth:

PC: 66,000gp
NPC: 21,000gp

That difference alone is enough to question the effectiveness of a LA+0 classed NPC where CR = APL.

At higher levels, it just gets worse.

 

[Infiniti2000]

That difference alone is enough to question the effectiveness of a LA+0 classed NPC where CR = APL.

At higher levels, it just gets worse.

That's why I work on increasing the EL without increasing the CR, if those are the bad guys I deem appropriate for the encounter. Ambushes, terrain, etc. all help in making an encounter not just challenging, but interesting. IMO, making it interesting is the more important factor.

 

[Nail]

...and I know you adjust the XP because of it. As a player, I find being suitably challenged and suitably rewarded (XP & gp) is good thing. Missing one or the other makes things less fun.


....which is way off topic. C'est la vie.

 

[shilsen]

Sounds like I need to be in your game.

Maybe

But even as a DM, and one that can optimize with the best of 'em, classed NPCs are typically much less of a threat for the CR. ...We are talking CR = APL, right? Your example of two 7th and one 8th level halflings calculates out to a EL 11....

Two 7th lvl and one 8th lvl NPCs equals out to EL 10-11, which is an encounter three 11th lvl PCs should win handily. And I don't think they were at all weak for their CR, and would rank pretty well with, for example, two hill giants (CR 7) and one stone giant (CR 8) from the MM, a very melee-focused encounter.

were there any other factors you're not telling us?

Yes. For example:

* The PCs have the equivalent of about 40 point buy
* All three PCs have permanent +4 enhancement bonuses to three stats of their choosing
* I have house rules allowing one druid to benefit from multiple magic items in her wildshaped form of a brown bear
* The other druid is using the UA variants of the Aspect of Nature and the Druidic Avenger, is using a Monk's Belt to get major AC bonuses, and has the Hexer PrC from 3.0, so he has Greater Mage Armor and Greater Heroism as his arcane spells (both of which he cast while preparing for the duel)
* The third PC has a sentient Holy sword which alone is worth over 60,000 gp and has the smiting ability of an 8th lvl paladin and the spellcasting of a 7th lvl cleric
* I use the Spontaneous Metamagic 3/day rule from UA, which means the druids (both have Quicken Spell) were taking full attacks (or casting spells) and casting Quickened 1st or 2nd lvl spells at the same time without using a higher level slot

I think those are the main factors that come to mind

 

[shilsen]

...and I know you adjust the XP because of it. As a player, I find being suitably challenged and suitably rewarded (XP & gp) is good thing. Missing one or the other makes things less fun.

Maybe my game isn't for you then. PCs get XP in my campaign irrespective of what happens in the game. I've always considered XP a metagame construct which is just there to facilitate the fun of leveling up and character advancement, so I level PCs up at the rate I think suits the game. So PCs might kill a dragon and they might attend a few parties and they'll still get the same XP.

On the other hand, I keep my PCs very loaded, so that might work for you

....which is way off topic. C'est la vie.

I think we answered the OP's concerns in fair detail, which is why I'm indulging in related but somewhat off topic discussion now.