Privious Posts
Ongoing Druid Debate
The Goal of this thread is to discuss possible quirks and idiocycroceys and is continued from a side-discussion from “Characters –
Are shifters too powerful?” originally posted by Ahrimond.
The remainder of this post is the key elements of the previous discussion up to present:
05-22-05, 06:50 AM #
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Ballard_Alvar vbmenu_register("postmenu_2268282", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ahrimon
I guess I'm getting frustrated because I want to make a character that is a front line warrior using his claws as his primary weapon. A large portion of our time is spent in dungeons where I can expect five to six encounters per day. I want to make a character that is reliable enough to be in every fight. Not just the first two or three per day. I'm having a very hard time making a warrior that can shift enough to be viable at the lvl 6 to 10 range. . . .The other way was taking levels of druid and using the shifter substitution levels.
Ahrimon
Dear Frustrated Character Designer:
I just started reading your post, and I apologize in advance if what I am about to say has already been said. I have been min/max-ing for years and in my experience if you want to play a character with claws there are three ways to do it. being that you are(or were) targeting 6-10th levels that eliminates Bear Warrior. Of the two remaining options you have already grazed the surface of one of them, and in my opinion, the best. Lets face it, the Druid is the most powerful class in D&D.3.5. (e.g. d8 hit die, cleric BAB, Wild Shape, AND full Casting. I have made Druids that can produce 400+ damage/rd (given at 14th level) but certainly achievable. the examples I gave above of good aspects may not sound like much, but with the Natural Spell feat you can cast in wild form. this means that while you are shaped into a Polar Bear at 8th level, or and advanced Tiger (they advance to Huge-you get pounce) you can cast buffing spells on yourself like Bulls Strength, or the better choice Animal Growth( increased size +8 str bonus natural armor—stacks with Barkskin) and you will rip them to shreds with your 41+ str. That was pretty easy, wasn’t it? The Best part is, that at 8th level when you are doing all that each Wildshape will last 8 hrs, so you can do it all day long and then some. Did I mension you get Full Casting(all that and spells spells spells).
The third way to be effective with claws is to be a psychic warrior with claws of the beast. My roommate once tweaked one to do 17d6 + str with each attack. Between that, his reach of 20’ and Great Cleave that character killed folks dead. I think this last option is less viable because he could only do that 2-3 time per day because of power point issues.
I hope I have been helpful.
05-22-05, 10:01 AM #
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KarinsDad vbmenu_register("postmenu_2268418", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ballard_Alvar
Lets face it, the Druid is the most powerful class in D&D.3.5. (e.g. d8 hit die, cleric BAB, Wild Shape, AND full Casting. I have made Druids that can produce 400+ damage/rd (given at 14th level) but certainly achievable. the examples I gave above of good aspects may not sound like much, but with the Natural Spell feat you can cast in wild form. this means that while you are shaped into a Polar Bear at 8th level, or and advanced Tiger (they advance to Huge-you get pounce) you can cast buffing spells on yourself like Bulls Strength, or the better choice Animal Growth( increased size +8 str bonus natural armor—stacks with Barkskin) and you will rip them to shreds with your 41+ str. That was pretty easy, wasn’t it? The Best part is, that at 8th level when you are doing all that each Wildshape will last 8 hrs, so you can do it all day long and then some. Did I mension you get Full Casting(all that and spells spells spells).
How exactly does the "super Druid" handle a Flying Sorcerer with Greater Invisibility pelting him with offensive spells?
Also, core rules itself state that a Druid that has not been outside of a temperate forest could not become a polar bear. If you allow just any animal in the monster manuals, even ones the Druid has never encountered, then yes, the Druid can become more powerful. If you play according to core rules, it's more difficult to "min/max" this way.
Core rules also does not state that a Druid is allowed to bump up the size of herself in Wild Shape with Animal Growth. Animal Growth itself states that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack".
It does not state "Multiple spell effects that increase size do not stack". Since Supernatural Abilities can be Dispelled or suppressed in an Antimagic Field, they have to be considered magical effects.
So, you cannot increase your size by Wild Shaping and also by casting Animal Growth.
Finally, does the Natural Spell feat exist in 3.5? It was in the Masters of the Wild 3.0 book, but I could not find it in any 3.5 book (but, I do not have them all, is it in Races of the Wild?).
If you bend the rules to allow just anything, then sure, Druids can get real powerful. If you follow the rules, they can get powerful, but not brokenly so.
05-22-05, 05:19 PM #
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Brother MacLaren vbmenu_register("postmenu_2269143", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Finally, does the Natural Spell feat exist in 3.5? It was in the Masters of the Wild 3.0 book, but I could not find it in any 3.5 book (but, I do not have them all, is it in Races of the Wild?).
Player's Handbook
05-22-05, 10:13 PM #
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KarinsDad vbmenu_register("postmenu_2269684", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother MacLaren
Player's Handbook
Thanks.
Didn't even think to look in that book.
Yesterday, 05:30 AM #
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Ballard_Alvar vbmenu_register("postmenu_2273262", true);
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In the Druids Defense
Q:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
How exactly does the "super Druid" handle a Flying Sorcerer with Greater Invisibility pelting him with offensive spells?
A: The Goal of this post was to discuss effective characters that focus on claws. Yes, I did say that Druids are the most powerful base class in D&D; However, No PC will be able to deal with every encounter. For that reason a PC Joins a party. To support my claim that the Druid is the most powerful base class in D&D all I have to say is look at what you get: d8 hit die means that you don’t usually die in the first round of combat. Cleric BAB means that you aren’t quite as good at non modified melee as a fighter. Full spell casting: means that there is a versatility of magic to accommodate non melee focused encounters. Lastly, In addition to the full casting and a better than wizard bab, there are useful abilities like Wildshape, etc. All of these things combined can lead to a more than lethal combination. (e.g. see my first post).
Statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Also, core rules itself state that a Druid that has not been outside of a temperate forest could not become a polar bear. If you allow just any animal in the monster manuals, even ones the Druid has never encountered, then yes, the Druid can become more powerful. If you play according to core rules, it's more difficult to "min/max" this way.
Articulation:
I have never said anything about using non-core rules. It is perfectly plausible for a Druid of 8-10th level to have journeyed to the arctic regions. If the polar bear is not available, a Brown Bear is nearly as good.
Statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Core rules also does not state that a Druid is allowed to bump up the size of herself in Wild Shape with Animal Growth. Animal Growth itself states that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack".
It does not state "Multiple spell effects that increase size do not stack". Since Supernatural Abilities can be Dispelled or suppressed in an Antimagic Field, they have to be considered magical effects.
So, you cannot increase your size by Wild Shaping and also by casting Animal Growth.
Articulation: Yes, Wild shape is a supernatural ability. True multiple effects that increase size do not stack. Wildshape, however, says “as
Polymorph” which the first sentence of the spell reads “This spell functions like
alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.” No where does it says you increase size therefore it is not qualify as a magical affect that increases size. this means that spells like
Animal Growth would not stack with spells or effects such as
Righteous Might or
Expansion which otherwise specifically say that they increase size.. To better illustrate my point I am changing my form into a completely different form, even assuming the types and subtypes this is the new base form (although you retain your hp/mental stats/etc per the specific clause) My new form is thus subject to an affect that increases size as there is no other effect that is in effect at that time.
In short, I am simply saying that given the current wording and definitions provided in the core, the example is a legal option for the druid to take. As for dealing with Invisible firballing wizard (obviously with the drop on the druid) he may not do well, but if the situation is turned around and the wizard is grappling with the wildshaped druid, one could offer the same result.
Yesterday, 06:13 AM #
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KarinsDad vbmenu_register("postmenu_2273296", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ballard_Alvar
A: The Goal of this post was to discuss effective characters that focus on claws. Yes, I did say that Druids are the most powerful base class in D&D; However, No PC will be able to deal with every encounter. For that reason a PC Joins a party. To support my claim that the Druid is the most powerful base class in D&D all I have to say is look at what you get: d8 hit die means that you don’t usually die in the first round of combat. Cleric BAB means that you aren’t quite as good at non modified melee as a fighter. Full spell casting: means that there is a versatility of magic to accommodate non melee focused encounters. Lastly, In addition to the full casting and a better than wizard bab, there are useful abilities like Wildshape, etc. All of these things combined can lead to a more than lethal combination. (e.g. see my first post).
At low level, sure. A Druid is more potent than a Wizard or Sorcerer. And even at high level, a Druid can dish out more damage with melee attacks.
But, at medium to high levels, Wizards and Sorcerers can fight without even being on the battlefield and Druids cannot match that (e.g. Fly with Greater Invisibility, or cast spells through a Projected Image, or Summon Creatures, or Dominate others, or create undead armies, etc., etc., etc.). Yes, a Druid can Summon Nature's Allies, but they tend to be no match for what a Wizard or Sorceer can summon/conjure/create.
And, if you break the rules by allowing WildShaping that increases a Druid's size category to stack with Animal Growth that explicitly states that it does not allow that, then of course, your Druid will be able to dish out even more damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ballard_Alvar
Articulation: Yes, Wild shape is a supernatural ability. True multiple effects that increase size do not stack. Wildshape, however, says “as Polymorph” which the first sentence of the spell reads “This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.” No where does it says you increase size therefore it is not qualify as a magical affect that increases size. this means that spells like Animal Growth would not stack with spells or effects such as Righteous Might or Expansion which otherwise specifically say that they increase size.. To better illustrate my point I am changing my form into a completely different form, even assuming the types and subtypes this is the new base form (although you retain your hp/mental stats/etc per the specific clause) My new form is thus subject to an affect that increases size as there is no other effect that is in effect at that time.
This is semantics and a way for min/maxers and powergamers to try to get around the rules.
It does not matter if your new form defaults to a different size. If a Polymorph spell or WildShape changes your size from Medium to Large, it is a magical effect that increased
YOUR size. How it does it does not matter. It's magic.
You cannot claim that it did not increase your size or more specifically according to the rules, your size category.
Just look at what you wrote:
"No where does it says you increase size therefore it is not qualify as a magical affect that increases size"
Because the spell does not explicitly state that you increase size, you do not??? This is like saying that just because the spell did not explicitly state that your weight increased when you became a Dragon, that the rickety wooden bridge would still support your new weight.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either your size category increased and you gained reach and got a -1 penalty per size increase to AC, etc., or it did not.
You cannot pretend that your size category did not change and that it was not a magical effect that caused it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ballard_Alvar
In short, I am simply saying that given the current wording and definitions provided in the core, the example is a legal option for the druid to take.
Except that it is not legal.
You are pretending that your character did not change size category due to magic because the default size of the form he got changed into is different than his original form and now becomes his new default size.
You are ignoring the fact that it was still magic that changed his size when he changed to the new form and that his size category actually does change.
In location after location after location in the rules, it states:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
It does not state: "Multiple magical effects that explicity state that they increase size do not stack."
But, that is what you are attempting to change the rules to in order to get the result you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ballard_Alvar
As for dealing with Invisible firballing wizard (obviously with the drop on the druid) he may not do well, but if the situation is turned around and the wizard is grappling with the wildshaped druid, one could offer the same result.
Not if the Wizard has Dimension Door and a decent Concentration roll.
Yesterday, 07:03 AM #
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Brother MacLaren vbmenu_register("postmenu_2273350", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Yes, a Druid can Summon Nature's Allies, but they tend to be no match for what a Wizard or Sorceer can summon/conjure/create.
In my experience, the Summon Nature's Ally creatures are actually more powerful in melee combat than the Summon Monster creatures. You don't get the templates, but you do get animals one or two levels earlier (dire bear at 6th rather than celestial dire bear at 8th) which is a huge advantage. Animal Growth is an excellent way to enhance the summons. Spontaneous casting is a good feature that should not be ruled out.
Summon Monster's advantage is in the spell-like powers of some of the outsiders you can summon. The elementals are on both lists (non-templated) and are often very good options, and they are usually lower level for the druid. It's really the calling spells that most favor wizards and clerics.
There's a running rules debate on wild shape/animal growth and, yes, it does come down to semantics (much like the debate on lance and 1.5x Str bonus). I doubt it's really necessary to allow them to stack in order for the druid to be an effective combatant (though if it becomes widely accepted that they don't stack, I think you'll see a higher-level spell that does stack and/or prestige class features to increase size).
Last edited by Brother MacLaren : Yesterday at 05:07 PM.
Yesterday, 07:57 AM #
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glass vbmenu_register("postmenu_2273458", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
In location after location after location in the rules, it states:
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
I guess the question is, do you consider wildshape
et al to be effects that increase size.
I consider them to be shape changing effects. Some shapes just happen to be naturally bigger than other.
glass.
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Yesterday, 08:54 AM #
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Diirk vbmenu_register("postmenu_2273600", true);
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Its actually better for the druid if they don't stack; he remains a valid target of the animal growth, so the spell still goes off. But if you're playing it that multiple enlargements don't work (thats the rules) and that wildshape is indeed a size altering effect (thats a bit questionable, but for the sake of argument we'll go along), then the animal growth and wildshape overlap. That is, they're both there, but they don't stack.
Now lets have a look at what spells do when they overlap. If you have a morale bonus to attacks already, and someone casts heroism on you, what happens ? The morale bonuses to attack don't stack, so you pick the better of the two. But regardless of which is better, heroism still grants you the bonus to ability checks and saves.
In the same way, animal growth's size alteration may be redundant and not do anything, but the DR 10/magic, the saves boost and the stat modifications would still take effect. Without making you too big to fit in a dungeon. Sign me up !
Last edited by Diirk : Yesterday at 09:24 AM.
Yesterday, 09:31 AM #
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KarinsDad vbmenu_register("postmenu_2273766", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Diirk
Its actually better for the druid if they don't stack; he remains a valid target of the animal growth, so the spell still goes off. But if you're playing it that multiple enlargements don't work (thats the rules) and that wildshape is indeed a size altering effect (thats a bit questionable, but for the sake of argument we'll go along), then the animal growth and wildshape overlap. That is, they're both there, but they don't stack.
Now lets have a look at what spells do when they overlap. If you have a morale bonus to attacks already, and someone casts heroism on you, what happens ? The morale bonuses to attack don't stack, so you pick the better of the two. But regardless of which is better, heroism still grants you the bonus to ability checks and saves.
In the same way, animal growth's size alteration may be redundant and not do anything, but the DR 10/magic, the natural armour boost and the stat modifications would still take effect. Without making you too big to fit in a dungeon. Sign me up !
Maybe, maybe not.
"Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."
"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."
This can easily be read that if you do not grow, you do not get the benefits. The Animal Growth spell is still up, but it does nothing. In other words, one Transformation spell prevents the other Transformation spell from taking effect. It is not that some of the magical effects do not stack, it is that all of the magical effects do not stack.
According to your philosophy, a Righteous Might followed by an Enlarge Person would result in a character of the same size and ability changes as per Righteous Might, but with a -2 to Dex due to Enlarge Person.
Yesterday, 05:06 PM #
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Brother MacLaren vbmenu_register("postmenu_2275371", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Diirk
In the same way, animal growth's size alteration may be redundant and not do anything, but the DR 10/magic, the saves boost and the stat modifications would still take effect. Without making you too big to fit in a dungeon. Sign me up !
Well, I'd think you couldn't get the size bonus to abilities if your size doesn't increase further. But a spell that grants DR 10/magic, +4 resistance on saves, and increase of natural armor by 2 (not enhancement bonus) would by itself be useful. What level?
Yesterday, 06:22 PM #
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IcyCool vbmenu_register("postmenu_2275558", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
And, if you break the rules by allowing WildShaping that increases a Druid's size category to stack with Animal Growth that explicitly states that it does not allow that, then of course, your Druid will be able to dish out even more damage.
Last I heard, this was still up for debate. Has that been cleared up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
According to your philosophy, a Righteous Might followed by an Enlarge Person would result in a character of the same size and ability changes as per Righteous Might, but with a -2 to Dex due to Enlarge Person.
I'm pretty certain this is how it would work. Can anyone cite rules to confirm or deny this?
Yesterday, 07:32 PM #
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KarinsDad vbmenu_register("postmenu_2275729", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcyCool
Last I heard, this was still up for debate. Has that been cleared up?
Well, I have never debated the issue previously (and was not even aware the issue existed), but if you literally read the rules, two magical effects that increase size do not stack. Sometimes, the answers to a few simple questions can make it clearer:
If Wild Shape is used to change a Halfling into a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Halfing increase? Yes.
Is Wild Shape a magical effect? Yes.
If Animal Growth is used to increase the size a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Polar Bear increase? Yes.
Is Animal Growth a magical effect? Yes.
The fact that some people want Wild Shape and Polymorph Transmutations to not be considered size altering ones appears to be irrelevant to the rules themselves and a semantical game. If the game explicitly called out a "size changing" spell game mechanic (e.g. like Transmutation [Size Altering] [Type Altering]) and said "Magical Size Altering effects that increase size do not stack" and if Alter Self and Polymorph and Wild Shape did not have the [Size Altering] qualifier, then their argument would have merit.
But as is, the claim is that the spells do not explicitly state that they change the size (and instead change the form which can have a different size), hence, it does not count is fairly weak in a rules forum. It's not as if the size is not changing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcyCool
I'm pretty certain this is how it would work. Can anyone cite rules to confirm or deny this?
No. The rules are unclear on it.
"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."
This is the closest rule we have and it is unclear.
However, it is a fairly illogical if having Righteous Might up by itself gives one set of abilities, then casting Enlarge Person would make those abilities worse.
For example:
PC Cleric: "Ha ha evil doer. I have cast Righteous Might on myself and will now crush your followers."
NPC Wizard: "Not so fast holy spawn. <Enlarge Person>. Ha ha. You are now easier to hit and easier to damage with evocation spells."
PC Cleric: "Darn."
It makes more sense and is much much easier to adjudicate if no aspect of a transmutation will work if any portion of it is prevented from working. In other words, in order to successfuly transmute, you must fully transmute. The later spell becomes completely "irrelevant".
The fact that you do not Enlarge at all implies that you do not get a -2 size penalty to Dex for enlarging (at all).
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Yesterday, 07:53 PM #
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Patryn of Elvenshae vbmenu_register("postmenu_2275779", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Well, I have never debated the issue previously (and was not even aware the issue existed), but if you literally read the rules, two magical effects that increase size do not stack. Sometimes, the answers to a few simple questions can make it clearer:
If Wild Shape is used to change a Halfling into a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Halfing increase? Yes.
Alternatively, someone might reasonably ask, "What halfling?"
Yesterday, 10:27 PM #
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Quote:
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Patryn of Elvenshae
Alternatively, someone might reasonably ask, "What halfling?"
Reasonably?
Just because you change form does not mean you change who you are, nor does it mean that a magical effect did not change your size category (along with changing your form).
It's called a Transmutation spell for a reason.
Yesterday, 11:04 PM #
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Diirk vbmenu_register("postmenu_2276306", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Reasonably?
Just because you change form does not mean you change who you are, nor does it mean that a magical effect did not change your size category (along with changing your form).
Actually, it does change who you are. Thats why your type and subtype change, not just your body. It should also be pointed out that this 'multiple magic effects that change your size category' that you are found of spouting is not general rule, but a tag line at the bottom of each size modifying spell in the SRD/core books. Which is missing from polymorph. One could infer from that, that polymorph ISN'T a size altering spell.
And the one spell making another irrelevant clearly doesn't apply either. Irrelevant would be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names. Or is it your position that aid makes the effects from death knell irrelevant ? As Brother Maclaren said, even ignoring the stat adjustments, the DR and save bonuses have nothing to do with the size increase.
Yesterday, 11:26 PM #
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IcyCool vbmenu_register("postmenu_2276369", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
Well, I have never debated the issue previously (and was not even aware the issue existed), but if you literally read the rules, two magical effects that increase size do not stack. Sometimes, the answers to a few simple questions can make it clearer:
If Wild Shape is used to change a Halfling into a Polar Bear, did the size category of the Halfing increase? Yes.
It's not nearly so straightforward. One could easily argue that the size category of the Halfling did not increase. You do not have a large Halfling. You have a large Polar Bear.
I'm just pointing out that it's not cut and dried.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KarinsDad
No. The rules are unclear on it.
"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."
This is the closest rule we have and it is unclear.
However, it is a fairly illogical if having Righteous Might up by itself gives one set of abilities, then casting Enlarge Person would make those abilities worse.
For example:
PC Cleric: "Ha ha evil doer. I have cast Righteous Might on myself and will now crush your followers."
NPC Wizard: "Not so fast holy spawn. <Enlarge Person>. Ha ha. You are now easier to hit and easier to damage with evocation spells."
PC Cleric: "Darn."
PC Cleric: "Whew, I thought you were going to do something nasty." *Proceeds to beat the NPC Wizard to a pulp.*
It seems logical to me that the size increase doesn't stack (and thus, you don't aquire the size bonuses), but the other effects of the spell should continue to function.
*shrugs* YMMV
Yesterday, 11:56 PM #
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcyCool
It's not nearly so straightforward. One could easily argue that the size category of the Halfling did not increase. You do not have a large Halfling. You have a large Polar Bear.
I'm just pointing out that it's not cut and dried.
Actually, it is totally cut and dried.
You do have a large Polar Bear. But, it is the same Halfling character who now has reach. He does not have the form of a Halfling, but he is still the same character. As such, there is no way you can argue that he did not gain size categories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IcyCool
PC Cleric: "Whew, I thought you were going to do something nasty." *Proceeds to beat the NPC Wizard to a pulp.*
It seems logical to me that the size increase doesn't stack (and thus, you don't aquire the size bonuses), but the other effects of the spell should continue to function.
Hmmm. A tough one to be sure (rules-wise).
If you cast Enlarge Person on the Halfling and he then Wild Shapes to the Polar Bear, what happens?
Does Enlarge Person on the Halfling stop functioning because he is no longer a person? Probably not since the rule on "characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform" only applies when the spell is cast.
Or, is he unable to Wild Shape to a Polar Bear because it is Large and the Halfling is currently only Medium?
Or with your "the other effects of the spell should continue to function" idea, does he become a Medium Sized Polar Bear? In other words, he gains the form, but not the size.
In this case, how do you rule that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." unless you just flat out prevent the second Transmutation from working at all? The number of different ways to interpret this starts creeping up otherwise.
Today, 01:10 AM #
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KarinsDad vbmenu_register("postmenu_2276515", true);
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Diirk
Actually, it does change who you are. Thats why your type and subtype change, not just your body.
Type and subtype are merely game mechanic rules to allow DMs to know how to adjudicate other effects.
For example, if you are Lawful Evil and Shapechange into a Titan, your alignment does not become Chaotic just because your new subtype is Chaotic. You can (and should) still act lawfully.
Protection From Law and Protection From Chaos will both now be affective against you because you are still Lawful with a Chaotic subtype, but you are still you. Just a different body.
Or are you claiming that Shapechange which is based on Polymorph which is based on Alter Self which states that you retain your own mind is no longer valid?
It is still the same character. A character TRANSMUTED by magic and hence whose size increased by magic.
If Diirk is playiing a PC and that PC is polymorphed, it does not become an NPC under the DMs control.
It is the same PC and Diirk still plays him. Just a PC with different abilities.
If that Transformed PC walks into an Antimagic Field, he changes back.
Are you claiming that a Reincarnated PC is no longer the same PC?
Are you claiming that a 20th level Monk is no longer the same PC?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Diirk
It should also be pointed out that this 'multiple magic effects that change your size category' that you are found of spouting is not general rule, but a tag line at the bottom of each size modifying spell in the SRD/core books. Which is missing from polymorph. One could infer from that, that polymorph ISN'T a size altering spell.
Except that your size changes.
That's like saying that when you acquire a smaller size when polymorphed, you do not have to follow the carrying capacity rules for Small creatures because those rules are not in the Polymorph spell either.
And, it is a general rule because it directly talks about magical effects outside of the spell itself that it is listed in. Unlike Haste stating that it counters Slow, or Daylight stating that it dispels or counters lower level Darkness spells, this rule does not explicity state which other spells it affects. It states which type of magical effects it affects (i.e. those "that increase size"). It is a general rule statement that applies to any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that increases size, not just spells that also state it.
If it meant only spells (and according to you, only spells with the same sentence in them), it would have stated spells and not "magical effects".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Diirk
And the one spell making another irrelevant clearly doesn't apply either. Irrelevant would be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names. Or is it your position that aid makes the effects from death knell irrelevant ?
Irrelevant might be if the two magic effects did the same thing but had different names.
But, the example in the PHB page 172 TOTALLY disagrees with this interpretation, hence, your interpretation of the "irrelevant" sentence is NOT the only one according to RAW.
"If a creature using a shapechange effect becomes petrified by a flesh to stone spell, however, it turns into a mindless, inert statue, and the shapechange effect cannot help it escape."
The second transmutation here trumps the first one and the spells have totally differing effects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Diirk
As Brother Maclaren said, even ignoring the stat adjustments, the DR and save bonuses have nothing to do with the size increase.
I do not disagree with this IF the "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevent" rule does not trump the "Different Bonus Names" rule in this case.
The problem we have is that we do not know which rule trumps the other.
I am not saying what the answer is for Righteous Might followed by an Enlarge Person, I'm saying that the rules are unclear on it.
[font="]That should finally bring us up to date.[/font]
