Characters- Ongoing Druid Debate

[Ballard_Alvar]

How exactly does the "super Druid" handle a Flying Sorcerer with Greater Invisibility pelting him with offensive spells?


I don't have it handy, but I believe Tortise Shell should generally protect his tree-hugging behind. Total cover.

Other than that, control wind, ice storm, call lightning, call lightning storm, summon swarms or allies of all kinds, tree stride to a better position, lots of options, none of these are above level 5.

Thanks, I know he's got lots of options for spells, but I dont' have my PHB with me(at work). Thanks.

 

[Goolpsy]

I cant remember when or if the druid gets huge wild shape... You Have you have that 'size' shape, to change into a certain size monster..

If you have the huge wild shape, then yes.. sure you could transform into that tiger of yours..

 

[mikebr99]

You can't turn into Advanced versions of a form you are able to wildshape into.

But a 16th level Druid could change into a Dire Tiger...

Mike

 

[Brother MacLaren]

You can't turn into Advanced versions of a form you are able to wildshape into.

I think if you disallowed Animal Growth stacking with larger-than-base-size wildshape but allowed taking Advanced forms, you'd have a good compromise.

This makes some sense if different HD variants are assumed to represent different species within the same genus or family (similar to how snakes work in 3.5). A great horned owl might well be Small rather than Tiny, and a Large crocodile (rather than Medium) is probably standard for some regions.

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

I think if you disallowed Animal Growth stacking with larger-than-base-size wildshape but allowed taking Advanced forms, you'd have a good compromise.

This makes some sense if different HD variants are assumed to represent different species within the same genus or family (similar to how snakes work in 3.5). A great horned owl might well be Small rather than Tiny, and a Large crocodile (rather than Medium) is probably standard for some regions.

That is an interesting thought. I like that. I guess I never pictured what an advanced creature is supposed to represent. My roomate is a lawyer and he can make an argument either way for Wildshape/Animal Growth (size altering or form) But his interpretation is that it is dependent. for example if you did WS into a Black Bear, then you could gain full benefits from the AG. Should you WS into a Brown Bear then you would only get the DR and Save bonus.

Tough call though, i'm not sure which I like better; Larger than "Base" size WS, or "Base" size + AG. . . one could, however still make the argument for Larger than "Base" size + AG. I am searching presently for rules that may dictate any way. I think I know how I would handle it, but it would give me piece of mind to know how Wizards handles it. . .

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

You can't turn into Advanced versions of a form you are able to wildshape into.

Mike, Can you show me where? All I see when I look at the WS entry in the Druid Class is
"[font=&quot]At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animaimal " and "[/font][font=&quot]In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level."

[/font]That means that of the creatures listed under "Animal" that are huge, one is limited to Giant Crocodile, Elephant, posably a Huge Shark depending on your interpritation, Giant Constricter Snake, Huge Viper Snake (again on interpritation), Giant Squid, Orca.
Including Dire Animals there is the Dire Shark. Thats it, and of that Only an elephant or snake is any good under most conditions and those aren't typically in a druids Home terrain either. --although, using the same argument I used earlier this thread, it is perfectly plausable for a druid of this level to have traveled outside his normal region. It still remainds a bit of a quandry. Why would the druid get that if there are only a few forms to shift into. Now, if you allow Advanced creatures that gives you a little more base. That gives you. . . Ok, not a whole lot more: A giant octopus at that worth something. . . right(no), A Rino(15th Level)!. . .--Everyone likes Huge Tigers(15th level), if you use the Dire list, it gets a better Dire Bear(17th Level). Dire Boar(17th level), Dire Lion(17th level) and Dire Tiger(33rd Level). But MOST of those (especially Dire) you can't use until you are 17th level +. . . so that's it Rinos and Tigers no bears, oh my! - at least until 17th level.

Also, its dumb that I have to take feats or use expanded material from Races of Stone in order to shape into a decent combat orented flying creature.

Well, I think I'm done ranting for now. If anyone (including mike) can please show me where it says that I can't, I would appreciate that.

Thank you.

 

[Diirk]

Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

Apart from the hideousness that is spells/abilties referencing each other, Alter Self/Polymorph/Wild Shape allow you to change into an average member of a species. An advanced creature represents a special, extraordinarily tough member of its species, not an average member. The average member of the species is the one listed in the MM.

Advancing a monster is a guideline for the DM... for example if he wants an adventure where a wolf pack along with its extraordinarily large leader have been terrorizing a village, he may choose to use 8 or so wolves and a special wolf advanced to large size with the appropriate HD. Where a Dire Wolf is a different breed, this advanced wolf would be the same breed... just a lot tougher.

Interestingly 'Crocodile' and 'Giant Crocodile' are different species/breeds too... if you read the descriptions they refer to (slightly) different things. There are many different sized animals in the world, and wizards decided to simplify alot of them into generic categories rather than name them all.

As far as huge animals go, triceratops (16 HD) and tyrannosaurus (18 HD) are also both available to be wildshaped into.

In general there's an easy way to tell if its ok to wildshape/polymorph into something. If it has an entry in the monster manual, and has no class HD, no template and you don't have to advance it to use it, then its fine. Otherwise probably not.

 

[Diirk]

Also, its dumb that I have to take feats or use expanded material from Races of Stone in order to shape into a decent combat orented flying creature.

Dire Bat from the core rules is decent. The Desmodu bats from MM2 are pretty decent, too. However druids wildshape into animals, and how many vicious predatory flying animals do you know of that would pose a serious threat to an average human ?

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

Apart from the hideousness that is spells/abilties referencing each other, Alter Self/Polymorph/Wild Shape allow you to change into an average member of a species. An advanced creature represents a special, extraordinarily tough member of its species, not an average member. The average member of the species is the one listed in the MM.

Advancing a monster is a guideline for the DM... for example if he wants an adventure where a wolf pack along with its extraordinarily large leader have been terrorizing a village, he may choose to use 8 or so wolves and a special wolf advanced to large size with the appropriate HD. Where a Dire Wolf is a different breed, this advanced wolf would be the same breed... just a lot tougher.

Interestingly 'Crocodile' and 'Giant Crocodile' are different species/breeds too... if you read the descriptions they refer to (slightly) different things. There are many different sized animals in the world, and wizards decided to simplify alot of them into generic categories rather than name them all.

As far as huge animals go, triceratops (16 HD) and tyrannosaurus (18 HD) are also both available to be wildshaped into.

In general there's an easy way to tell if its ok to wildshape/polymorph into something. If it has an entry in the monster manual, and has no class HD, no template and you don't have to advance it to use it, then its fine. Otherwise probably not.

Well I suppose the line "You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check." is the best argument I have heard thus far, however it could also be argued that it says your are "Disguiesed" as an average member may or may not mean that it is limited to huge. you may infer a -4 circumstance penalty (net +6) to the disguise for being a size catigory larger than the average, but it is still concievable to still argue for it. Now, one could argue "you can always argue", but I say that's not nessesarily the case. perhaps I should stop before I make myself cross-eyed.

It would be interesting to play in a world where Dinosaurs are available. They havn't been in any world i've played in. -- one clause should be added to your general rule thought "within the set guidelines" like in WS -the only animal suptype thing. (I know dinosaurs are animals) . . . good greif.

Anyway, thanks for the input. I've read that line 20 times but wasn't looking for that context. Thaks for pointing that out. I suppose I'll be leaning more towords the "Can't do it" now more than the "Can do it" side. That still does suck about the shortage of ANY huge forms.

thanks - Ballard Alvar(the name isn't just any given by dwarves)

 

[Ballard_Alvar]

Dire Bat from the core rules is decent. The Desmodu bats from MM2 are pretty decent, too. However druids wildshape into animals, and how many vicious predatory flying animals do you know of that would pose a serious threat to an average human ?

Animals? not many. but like the Giant Eagle and the Giant Owl are Magical Beasts. I blame tolkein. the Dire Eagle from Races of Stone are kewl. I would like to shift to a Roc sometime, but that isn't going to happen. ohh well.