Charge!

[Scribble]

Ok So last session one of my PCs and I were debating a rules issue about charge. In particular this part:

No Further Actions: After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn, unless you spend an action point to take an extra action.

Her stance was that you can take extra actions BEFORE you take the charge action. You just can't take any other actions afterwards. (IE you could move, then charge, or take a minor, then charge, etc...)

I felt that it was just badly worded, and that it meant you can only make a charge if you decide to do it that round.

I see her idea is reasonable based on the wording, so I told her even though we went by my ruling at the table, I'd look into it.

So fellow enworld 4e players... what are your thoughts?

I can see her reading of the rules as

 

[Obryn]

I'd say she's 100% right in her interpretation. IIRC, it's also how the Charge action worked in SWSE.

Yes, you can take a move and a minor before you Charge. The charge just ends your turn once it's resolved.

-O

 

[Mengu]

She is correct. You can move, then charge. You can use a minor action, then move, then charge. These are all legal.

Charging is a standard action and the only restriction is you can't take any actions after it, unless you use an action point.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

She is correct. You can move, then charge. You can use a minor action, then move, then charge. These are all legal.

Charging is a standard action and the only restriction is you can't take any actions after it, unless you use an action point.

This.

Some DM are allowing free actions even after the charge.

And some people here think that, you should be able to take free actions after a charge and that the restriction of no actions applies only to standard, move, and minor actions.

We had another thread about this a few weeks ago.

 

[Markn]

I agree with Obryn and Mengu. That is the correct interpretation as I see it.

 

[DracoSuave]

Agreed. One of the keys to understanding this is the words 'After you resolve a charge attack....'

This is a clear timestamp, as you cannot resolve a charge attack before you've made a charge attack. If they'd meant it any other way, it might read 'You may not take any other actions on the turn you charge. If you've already taken an action, you may not charge.' Fourth Edition rules tend to be direct and to the point on things like that.

 

[Scribble]

Cool. I will admit that I am wrong then. (Well, I am right, but the world dissagrees for some reason. )

What's the drawback of charging then? (In that it seems like it essentially gives you a free move action followed by a +1 to attack. So why wouldn't someone charge in to attack every time?)

 

[shieldknight01]

In the AV there is the Bestial armor that allows you to make a MBA as a free action after a successful charge. Going off of this, I would allow free actions after a charge, but not move, minor, or standard unless as a part of an action point.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Cool. I will admit that I am wrong then. (Well, I am right, but the world dissagrees for some reason. )

What's the drawback of charging then?

Take a look at the difference between a basic attack and an attack that uses an at-will attack power. With one or two exceptions (that are generally agreed to be in need of a fix for the power), a basic attack is inferior. You only get a basic attack at the end of a charge.

Oh, and you can't charge and then shift away from your opponent, while some "move X squares and attack" powers DO let you charge and then shift away.

You need a minimum of 10 feet to charge.

So it would seem clear that a charge must only be a standard action (ie - you do get other actions) because otherwise why would you ever charge when you could simply move and use an attack power otherwise?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Cool. I will admit that I am wrong then. (Well, I am right, but the world dissagrees for some reason. )

What's the drawback of charging then? (In that it seems like it essentially gives you a free move action followed by a +1 to attack. So why wouldn't someone charge in to attack every time?)

You can only make a melee basic attack at the end of a charge. And a melee basic attack is defined in the PHB.

Therefore, you can't use most of your at-will/encounter/daily powers at the end of a charge.

The very same is true for monsters as well.

 

[Mengu]

What's the drawback of charging then? (In that it seems like it essentially gives you a free move action followed by a +1 to attack. So why wouldn't someone charge in to attack every time?)

Because you must use a basic attack when you charge. So you can't use your nifty at-will powers like Cleave, Twin Strike, or Enfeebling Strike on a charge.

There are of course exceptions, when a power specifically says it can be used on a charge, such as Howling Strike.

Edit: Too many ninjas here.

 

[shieldknight01]

I use charge all the time with my Barbarian. I have a basic power that allows me to use it in place of my MBA. Does excellent damage and gives a bonus afterwards. Also, with the Fast Runner and Powerful Charge feats, you can really get a good distance covered and extra damage when you charge. With some of the new powers and feats in PH2 I figured I could have as a shifter and in the right rage a speed of 12 when I charge. I don't know to many maps (in RPGA play) that would keep me from closing on an enemy in the first round. (Rage, Move, AP-charge)

 

[Ryujin]

She's right, the charge ends your actions. The only possibility for taking an additional action is if a specific power or item is used that explicitly permits something to be done as a result of a charge. As they say; few rules, many exceptions.

 

[Scribble]

Right- duh... Only a basic attack. My brain is addled today.

Thanks all!

 

[Obryn]

Oh, and you can't charge and then shift away from your opponent, while some "move X squares and attack" powers DO let you charge and then shift away.

There's also a set of boots in AV that let you shift 1 after a charge. They're pretty remarkably effective for Barbarians.

-O

 

[Doctor Proctor]

What's the drawback of charging then? (In that it seems like it essentially gives you a free move action followed by a +1 to attack. So why wouldn't someone charge in to attack every time?)

Well, besides the other reasons mentioned, another is that certain classes just aren't built for getting a lot out of charging every round. Since it's an MBA, it uses STR unless you take the Melee Training feat, so it's not the best option for Rogues. Fighters don't get that much benefit out of it either, as they like to stay adjacent to the monsters they've marked (in order to get CC and OA attacks). Granted, they mark as part of the charge, but since they have to move at least 2 squares to charge they cant block enemies from getting into the back row if they're always running around. So, staying in one space or small area and taking on all comers is usually better than running around and charging various enemies.

 

[Markn]

You need a minimum of 10 feet to charge.

Not to be picky, but you need 2 squares to charge. I don't have my PH in front of me but I believe everything is worded on squares and not feet.

 

[GorTeX]

even tho everything is worded in 'squares' distance, 10 feet is also correct as each square is 5 feet square..thus 2 squares = 10 feet (even moving diagonally in 4th edition apparently)

(please forgive any sarcasm here..I'm in a bad, bad mood at the moment..unrelated to this thread or gaming at all)

 

[Bagpuss]

This.

Some DM are allowing free actions even after the charge.

Well since you can take free actions even when it isn't your turn that seems fair.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, it is actually pretty hard to argue that free actions cannot be taken after a charge, given that they don't even need to be part of your turn. Of course ruling the opposite just means you can't wedge in certain free action buff/debuff kind of stuff, like triggering something that gives a save bonus for example before you take your end of turn sequence and throw saves. Either way, it isn't really a huge difference.

Note that the other answer to "why charge" that you will discover is that mechanically by separating move and attack into separate actions, certain things cannot be done. Like leaping out from a hidden position and attacking someone that is not adjacent to you with a melee attack. Charge is also the only generic way to use a readied action to close in and attack someone. There are times when those tactics are useful. I find that monsters charge quite a bit since they don't face the problem of using a lesser attack form (MBA vs at-will) like PCs do. DMs should definitely get real familiar with charge