Charisma as a luck mechanic: Part II

[Stalker0]

For those who remember, my first attempt at this can be found here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73948

I've given it another look over... and while I think my premise was sound, the mechanic wound up being too many rolls for too little benefit. So I've revamped it.

Now... whenever rolling a d20, you add your charisma bonus as a luck bonus or penalty to the roll whenever you roll a 10 on the die. As before, the dm can decide what d20 rolls to apply this to (all rolls, just saves, just attacks, any check, etc). This bonus or penalty is a luck bonus as for the purposes of stacking rules.

Why is this mechanic better than the last?
This requires less thought and less rolling. You just do what you always do, there's just one extra bonus or penalty to apply. You don't have to worry about knowing dcs or figuring out when to apply it.

Why a 10?
I figure for most rolls near 1's are going to miss, and near 20's are going to hit anyway. The rolls around 10 are the ones that can really change the result.

Are there any drawbacks?
While the mechanic will come up much more often than the last one, it won't always have a positive or negative effect. Also, it does scew probability curves. Now rolling a 10 can be better than rolling an 11,12,etc. which goes against the grain of standard rolling. Also, it disencourages high charisma players from taking 10 and encourages low charisma characters to do take 10. Although this fits the concept of low charisma being more cautious while higher charisma more brave and daring... some may not like this fact mechanically.

 

[Stalker0]

As a companion to my fate mechanic, I created a system to give sorcs and bards a spellcasting boost for their high charisma (I mean come on... the fact that your magic comes from your soul should give you something

Force Flaring

It is something that the most exotic sorceror will exaggerate upon to indefium, and the most inward wizard will scoff as nonsense... but it is indeed truth. While mages have tried to boil magic down to its most mechanical nature... at unexpected times magic can grip itself to its caster... creating the most powerful effects for those with the strength to weild it, and to pewter to nothing in the hands of the weak.

Mechanic:
Whenever casting a spell, roll a d20. On any number other than a 20, cast the spell as normal. On a 20, the caster has two choices:

1) Add their charisma mod as a luck bonus or penalty to the dc of the spell.
2) Do the same, but to the caster check for overcoming spell resistance.

If neither of these two apply (for example there is no SR to overcome and the spell has no save or the creature voluntarily gives up his save) then add the charisma mod as a luck bonus to caster level or the purposes of effects, duration, etc.

Sounds good, so what's the problem?
My only concern is the last paragraph. While I want their to always be a bonus or penalty for at least most spells, I don't want to go too far. Is the change in caster level too much, and is there a better way?

 

[Stalker0]

Force Flaring [Option II]

Here's an alternative way of doing force flaring that would only apply to sorcs and bards (basically make it a class ability).

Again as before, roll a 20 before casting the spell, on a 20:

You can apply a number of metamagic feats with spell increases totaling to your charisma mod upon the spell with no change in spell level. These feats must be ones you currently know, but you don't suffer the full-round action penalty normally associated with it.

The good

1) Allows sorcs and bards better use of metamagic feats.
2) Gives them a slight power and coolness edge over wizards which IMO they need.
3) As everyone and their dog have commented on, a way to give metamagic feats with reduced cost on occasion.
4) The fact that its random and not player initiated reduces min/maxing - ie, you can't plan the maximised fireball for the BBEG problem people had with the feats in the miniatures book.
5) Sorcs and bards can use quicken spell now in a round-about way.

The bad
1) More rolling
2) Do sorcs need more power, especially once in every 20 spells?
3) It works for monsters too
4) Quicken for sorcs? sounds like a problem to me.

The ugly
1) Player: Nice I just get an empower for free. DM: Hmm, well guess what, so does that dragon.
2) Player: Nice I rolled a 20, now I can apply my extend spell feat to my!!! .... scorching ray.

 

[Gez]

Fun ideas. I've an Ari/Sor with a pretty high Charisma that would love these rules...

For the Force Flaring rule, here's a proposal: It gives only a +1 bonus to DC and caster level, but not only on rolled 20. Rather, you use a "luck range" (akin to critical hits' threat range) equal to your Cha bonus (so, a character with Cha 17 would have a threat range of 3: 18--20).

It would make the force flaring more frequent, but smaller in its effect (a +3 to DC is pretty impressive).

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

The very high level implications of this could be a bit messy?

Its quite possible (albeit in a high powered game) for a 20th+ level caster to have charisma of 34 (18 +5 (increases) +5 (tome of X) +6 (item)). or a +12 charisma modifier... without going into the realms of adding silly item bonuses.

+12 onto a 10 would be better than rolling a 20?

+12 to DC or punch through SR is fairly unpleasant? 12 levels of free metamagic is even worse... quickened, maximised, enlarged, chained Energy Drain sprang to mind

Just an example. The idea is really cool... I think it would definitely add to the game... but this one may break down a little.

 

[Stalker0]

Fun ideas. I've an Ari/Sor with a pretty high Charisma that would love these rules...

For the Force Flaring rule, here's a proposal: It gives only a +1 bonus to DC and caster level, but not only on rolled 20. Rather, you use a "luck range" (akin to critical hits' threat range) equal to your Cha bonus (so, a character with Cha 17 would have a threat range of 3: 18--20).

It would make the force flaring more frequent, but smaller in its effect (a +3 to DC is pretty impressive).

The problem with this is it doesn't account for negative charismas, which this version of force flare was intending to do. Also, if it occurs too often then its just another bonus... I wanted the concept of the bonus to be something special. Something that occurs once every 20 or so rolls is somewhat special... once every 4 or 5 not so much. However, I agree your system is a bit cleaner and doesn't scale up powerwise too much... which mine does right now.

AL brought up a really good point about the high level scaleling. I don't have a big problem with the idea of rolling a 10 better than rolling a 20, for pc's you need a lot of equipment towards charisma which takes away from other stats (that work all the time, not just one in 20)... and most of the monsters that have those kinds of charisma again I don't really have a problem with them getting a boost every so often (dragons come to mind, they are special creatures after all)

But the +12 to DC is definately too high. The more I think about it, the more I like my second version of force flare... again though I wish I could include a penalty for low charisma wizards. For the metamagic version, do you think just allowing a single metamagic feat would work? You'd then get bonuses up to +4 cha (depending on your feat choices)... then afterwards the benefit would come from the normal luck mechanic.

How about this way to include the extra charisma? Make it where if the amount of charisma is twice the spell level requirement of the feat.. you can use the feat even if you don't possess it. For example, a sorc with a +6 charisma could use the maximise spell feat even if they don't have it as a feat. +4 would allow empower, +2 still, silent, etc.

 

[AeroDm]

The problem with this is it doesn't account for negative charismas, which this version of force flare was intending to do.

But negative charisma characters cannot cast spells...

 

[Gez]

But negative charisma characters cannot cast spells...

Exactly. I know you can have a sorcerer with Cha 10 or 11 (they would be restricted to casting cantrips or/and 1st level spells), but in my opinion, a 12 in the spellcasting ability is a minimum for a spellcaster, even a minor one. Especially for the bard, whose other class abilities depends on Charisma, and the Sorcerer, who has no other ability beside spells.

 

[drdevoid]

Would "1/2 charisma bonus or 1/2 caster level which ever is lower. You always receive at least a +2 bonus" work for Force Flaring?

Normally the clause reads "at least 1", but that makes this too lack luster before one reaches higher levels or receives significant stat boosters. It's still very powerful for a Dragon but it only occurs 5% of the time.

Perhaps this could be a feat? Or an Improved Force Flaring feat (prq: Caster Level 8th, ability to Spontaneously Cast arcane spells) could double the threat range to 19-20 similar to Gez's suggestion.

 

[AeroDm]

You could always use Gez's idea at 1/2 Charisma modifier. You can still get some pretty impressive ranges at the high levels, but IME characters don't often get about 26 which would be a range of 4 (17, 18, 19, 20). I know that in my campaign a charisma above 20 is awful impressive, which means that the greatest spread will be 19-20.

Alternatively...

You could just have it so that on a roll of a 20 you gain the +1 to whatever. Because high charisma offer more spells daily, the more charismatic sorcerers will have it occur more often anyhow. This has the added benefit of not already inflating an inflated stat.