Charisma != Beauty?

[Trine]

That picture was... odd. I'm not sure of anything aside from that to say.

Back to the real topic though: Beautiful people are not necessarily charismatic, and vice versa. Hitler was a good example of an extremely powerful speaker that most people wouldn't have found attractive (physically). (Mental attractiveness is different entirely... especially since many people are attracted to power or those who have it.)

 

[Sir Hawkeye]

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[Destil]

In 3e I the mental stats work more like this (when you look across all three books and the various places Cha and Wis are used this makes the most sense, IMHO), and not as it's listed in the first chapter of the PH (which is more of a 2E hold over description of the stat) :

Wisdom: internal willpower (ability to control yourself through your will), perception of the outside world, intuition.
Charisma: external willpower (ability to affect the world through your will), self perception, social smoothness.

Note that beauty, appearance and other things of that nature affect things like diplomacy in general because they either provide a favorable condition bouns the DM applies or because they alter the initial reaction of someone.

 

[megamania]

I try to look at the whole picture. CHA is mainly the ability to sway or influence another's actions. A perfect "10" wearing a Throng +5 will influence the majority of my players. But one can sway another's actions through tone and word usage also.

by the way- scarey Mind Flayer above.

 

[Hammerhead]

Was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. or Adolf Hitler particularily good looking? Not really, yet they were both extremely charismatic men. Abraham Lincoln looks half-dead, but he was also charismatic.

 

[SpringPlum]

Charisma and Beauty are not the same although they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. A person that is not particularly attractive but has a Charisma of 18 would not be seen as unattractive to those they interacted with. They are still compelling. But a pretty person that has a Charisma of 8 would not be as compelling and attractive to those they interacted with as opposed to how they are merely seen.

Character with a really low charisma like 5 (unless they make a habit of kicking puppies and putting babies on pikes) need a physical deformity to justify their charisma. An attractive person will never be seen that negatively. Just as a leper will never be able to justify a charisma of 18.

 

[William Ronald]

I like to think of Charisma as personal presence. This does not necessarily have to have anything to do with personal appearance. Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and Winston Churchill were charismatic in their own different ways.

 

[Saepiroth]

No is no
No is always no
If they say no, it means a thousand times no

No plus no equals no
All nos lead to no no no

Finger pointing, eyebrows low
Mouth in the shape of the letter O

Pardon me -- No!
Excuse me -- No!
May I stay?
Can I go?
No, no, no

Do this -- No!
Don't do that -- No!
Sit, stay, roll over
No, no, no

Finger pointing, eyebrows low
Mouth in the shape of the letter O
Red means stop. Do not go.
No, no, no

 

[fba827]

I figure I'll join in this beating of the dead horse ...

As further evidence as to why Charisma can not equal beauty ....

Beauty is subjective -- what one race or other character views as beautiful another race or character does not.

Charisma is often described in the core books as how well the character can impose (poor choice of word on my part) his / her own will/mind onto others. Beauty is physical attraciveness. What a dwarf finds beautiful an elf may not necessarily agree.

How good (measurable) is the character at fast talking others though, that is measurable and that is (part) of what Charisma represents (now different listeners have different levels of ability to withstand the fast talking but that's aside from this conversation). Yes, it is entirely possible that the person is also beautiful, but one does not necessarily guarentee the other.

I like to think of: Wisdom is to Constitution as Charisma is to Strength (Wisdom and Constitution are mental and physical ways of awareness and defense where as Charism and Strength are mental and physical ways of imposing force upon another). It's not the best description out there but it is a good guideline to help make the point I am trying to make -- i.e. no where in that equation does beauty fit.

blah blah blah... okay, I'll stop beating the horse (or is it hong?) now; I need some sleep...

 

[s/LaSH]

At least in high fantasy, almost every main character is ravishingly attractive. (By their own cultural standards, of course.) It's almost a prerequisite for heroism. By contrast, not everyone has a high Charisma. I think it's perfectly fair to rule that you can be as pretty as you want, but your Charisma comes from within.

There. Now I can go back to drawing my comic, secure in the knowledge that I'm simply carrying on a noble tradition and that the numbers don't mean anything. (Hey, read the past few strips... there's a brief discussion somewhere about this very topic. Zeitgeist, no?)