Charisma != Beauty?

[FriendlyFiend]

Hmm ... isn't there a tendency to view Charisma in a very 20th/21st century way? These days - thanks to photographs, films, TV, magazines - a lot of beautiful people are very famous. In pre-photographic societies, beauty was probably less of a factor (though still significant - very few people followed Cromwell's example and asked to be portrayed "warts and all"). A lot of charismatic figures from the past - Napoleon, Cromwell, Ivan the Terrible, &c &c - would certainly see their charisma suffer if it was rated like a beauty pageant. For me, even a character born looking like the rear end of a mule could still have a high charisma (and incidentally be a lot more interesting to play).

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I've heard horror stories about Skills & Powers. Luckily, for me they're only stories. I played OD&D and AD&D, but missed out (lucked out?) in that I didn't play for quite a while until a friend brought me back with 3e.

Re: charisma. It's more than loosely tied to beauty. People tend to pay attention to beautiful people more. Put ten people in a room and if one of them is strikingly beautiful, see which will have the easiest time gathering the others' attention. It's not a direct correlation, but the tie is better than loose.

Also, confidence plays an important role, and confidence can be tied (though not always, perhaps even loosely ) to physical appearance as well. So I wouldn't say that there's a need or justification to use charisma as something that only kicks in after a PC starts speaking, and comeliness before. I think 3e does it eloquently as it is.

 

[s/LaSH]

Charisma can be beauty, and beauty can be charisma, but the intersection is far from total. Hypothetical question: Cindy Crawford is trying to run you through with a longsword. Is she any better at getting past your defences? (Feint with Bluff skill, Charisma-based.) I don't think so. Now imagine fighting Ray Park. He's made a living playing horrible, ugly villains, but seeing him with a lightsaber makes you appreciate the ability to look cool no matter how many colour groups you have on your face.

OK, maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but you get my point, right?

 

[Tsyr]

Charisma != Beauty. At all, in my games.

Amazingly beutiful person with 10 charisma trying to use diplomacy on someone: "So, ummm... would you, like, please help me or something? Because... uh... well... y-y-y-you know... it would, uh... help me and stuff..."

That, or they come off sleazy... like a used car salesman... might look good, but there is just an aura about them that either makes people take them less than seriously, or distrust them.

 

[Neowolf]

The only experience I've had with this is that recently one of our players' girlfriend joined us as an elven fighter with a 9 charisma. She insists that she's still "pretty" but just has a bad personality. I thought that was a bit trivial, but go figure.

 

[seasong]

I let my players describe their physical attractiveness level, and treat CHR as a force of personality issue. A beautiful character will get a slight bonus on seduction checks, but an equal penalty when jealousy issues come up.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

*keeps admiring the hooters on the mind flayer*

 

[dave_o]

!

I remmber in 2E I had a little system set up for a seventh stat: Appearance. You rolled it up just like any other stat, meaning if you had a low App and a high Cha, you had other reasons for your charm than appearance. And vice versa.

But that was only your base App. It could fluctuate, depending on hygene (not so pretty after spending a week in a dungeon), extra care to look good, etc.

There was a set of modifiers App gave you too, but I can't find them quite right now.

Anyway, a stat that can fluctuate is the way to go, I think.

 

[RangerWickett]

 

[Epametheus]

You, sir, have just made my eyes bleed.

edit: Neat. Either I just killed yet another thread, or Wickett did.