Hand of Vecna
First Post
Well, I think she's a hottie...
*continues to oggle*
*continues to oggle*
Charisma != Beauty?
- Thread starter Azure Trance
- Start date
NoOneofConsequence
First Post
I once had a woman at uni point out her current beau, while saying that she "couldn't keep her hands off of him".
He had the worst case of acne I have ever seen, but other women had no problem with this woman's interpretation. Whenever I think of the gap between charisma and beauty, I remember this situation.
As for charisma bonuses from age not increasing physical beauty, I have just two words for you - Sean Connery. Lots of women like him better now than when he was younger, and it can't be because he's gotten more "handsome" - it's charismal.
My 2c
He had the worst case of acne I have ever seen, but other women had no problem with this woman's interpretation. Whenever I think of the gap between charisma and beauty, I remember this situation.
As for charisma bonuses from age not increasing physical beauty, I have just two words for you - Sean Connery. Lots of women like him better now than when he was younger, and it can't be because he's gotten more "handsome" - it's charismal.
My 2c
Gez
First Post
Illithids, beholders, and hill giants (!) all have high Charisma scores.
All are also ugly.
Arguably, the hill giant's Charisma is a bug, not a feature.
I see Charisma as strength of will -- active willpower, whereas he will save is merely passive (or reactive). That's why you can wield magic with Charisma, turn or rebuke undead, or force a magic item to obey your command.
All are also ugly.
Arguably, the hill giant's Charisma is a bug, not a feature.
I see Charisma as strength of will -- active willpower, whereas he will save is merely passive (or reactive). That's why you can wield magic with Charisma, turn or rebuke undead, or force a magic item to obey your command.
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
Personally, I think Wisdom should be divorced from willpower, and have all force of personality and willpower mechanics linked to Charisma-- such as the Will save.
Then, Wisdom would be perception and intuitiveness, and Charisma would be strength of personality, and there'd be far less confusion over what each statistic represents.
In games that don't have a specific divide between Arcane and Divine Magic, I tend to make all magic Arcane, and link all of it to Charisma. That's how I'm working sorcery for my superheroes game, when I eventually get it running. It just makes sense to me that force of personality drives magical power more than reasoning capacity or perception.
Then, Wisdom would be perception and intuitiveness, and Charisma would be strength of personality, and there'd be far less confusion over what each statistic represents.
In games that don't have a specific divide between Arcane and Divine Magic, I tend to make all magic Arcane, and link all of it to Charisma. That's how I'm working sorcery for my superheroes game, when I eventually get it running. It just makes sense to me that force of personality drives magical power more than reasoning capacity or perception.
Vaxalon
First Post
People react negatively to people with low charisma.
How do people react negatively to a beautiful person?
People of the same gender preference (i.e. they prefer that gender) would have a desire to own or control the beautiful person.
People of the opposite gender preference could be jealous of perceived gender preference.
They might think she's 'stuck up' or otherwise unapproachable.
How do people react negatively to a beautiful person?
People of the same gender preference (i.e. they prefer that gender) would have a desire to own or control the beautiful person.
People of the opposite gender preference could be jealous of perceived gender preference.
They might think she's 'stuck up' or otherwise unapproachable.
incognito
First Post
I agree with VAX (suprisingly).
Since charisma is used to modify the attitudes of people, and beauty modifies your attitude...
All other things being equal, the same 'pitch' from an attractive person is more successful than an unattractive one. You cannot turn to extremes, to justify an argument in this case. Both Hitler, and the annoying self centered model are extremes. Jus tthink about the last time an attractive person made a comment to you, and the impact it had, vs an unattractive person, amking the same comment, and the shift in impact.
I'm not sure how subjective standards of beauty are. I'll provide a counter example to the eskimo.
How many times have you been to a park, or walking down the street, and seen a dog, and though (not in a sexual way, but in an appreciative way). "Man, that's a good looking dog!" By that you meant healthy, good clean coat, white teeth, etc, etc. And dogs are not the same species as humans.
Also, I think I recall there being being studies where, certain physical traits were universally found to be attractive. For women, it was large eyes, with slightly dialated pupils. An some other stuff. The pupil thing really stuck with me though. Not sure why we like dialated pupils though.
Since charisma is used to modify the attitudes of people, and beauty modifies your attitude...
All other things being equal, the same 'pitch' from an attractive person is more successful than an unattractive one. You cannot turn to extremes, to justify an argument in this case. Both Hitler, and the annoying self centered model are extremes. Jus tthink about the last time an attractive person made a comment to you, and the impact it had, vs an unattractive person, amking the same comment, and the shift in impact.
I'm not sure how subjective standards of beauty are. I'll provide a counter example to the eskimo.
How many times have you been to a park, or walking down the street, and seen a dog, and though (not in a sexual way, but in an appreciative way). "Man, that's a good looking dog!" By that you meant healthy, good clean coat, white teeth, etc, etc. And dogs are not the same species as humans.
Also, I think I recall there being being studies where, certain physical traits were universally found to be attractive. For women, it was large eyes, with slightly dialated pupils. An some other stuff. The pupil thing really stuck with me though. Not sure why we like dialated pupils though.
Thresher
First Post
Dilated pupils are a sign of stress and axiety usually, though they also happen under the influence of stimulants and hallucinagens. Youre right about the large eyes though, apparently theyre a fairly common physical focal point that humans at least find attractive. In other humans anyway 
As for attractiveness and charisma, in my opinion attractiveness is far too subjective to the individual species, while it may have a slight bearing on the initial 'Notice ME!' encounter it aint going to help out in the long term.
ie:
Harry Buff the fighter has a very attractive appearance which women find pleasing. Unfortunatly for Harry, he lacks social graces and the whole initial encounter with the attractive bar maid he fancies goes down hill when he opens his mouth and says something stupid like "Nice norks luv!" and proceeds to pick his nose and wipe it on the bar.
Now, Harry's friend Bob the sorcerer is possessed of completely average looks and people wouldnt notice him on the street next to any other peasent. But, Bob says things people want to hear, like to hear and is sure enough of himself to actually convince others that he is saying the right thing.
In both cases people might remember the handsome young fighter passing through town or the man with the stick that complimented farmer Joe on the quality of his vegetables.
Its up to you if you use a 7th stat, either rolling for it or electing it. Being average looking has a lot of advantages, especially if your a rogue
As for attractiveness and charisma, in my opinion attractiveness is far too subjective to the individual species, while it may have a slight bearing on the initial 'Notice ME!' encounter it aint going to help out in the long term.
ie:
Harry Buff the fighter has a very attractive appearance which women find pleasing. Unfortunatly for Harry, he lacks social graces and the whole initial encounter with the attractive bar maid he fancies goes down hill when he opens his mouth and says something stupid like "Nice norks luv!" and proceeds to pick his nose and wipe it on the bar.
Now, Harry's friend Bob the sorcerer is possessed of completely average looks and people wouldnt notice him on the street next to any other peasent. But, Bob says things people want to hear, like to hear and is sure enough of himself to actually convince others that he is saying the right thing.
In both cases people might remember the handsome young fighter passing through town or the man with the stick that complimented farmer Joe on the quality of his vegetables.
Its up to you if you use a 7th stat, either rolling for it or electing it. Being average looking has a lot of advantages, especially if your a rogue
I wish that people would stop going for the whole 'good looking but totally devoid of any redeeming features' against 'average looking but could persuade Asmodeus to become a charity worker' comparison. It is, quite plainly, facile.
Of course there are situations whereby a more good-looking person with lose out to a genuinely more charismatic person. However, given *equal* charisma, the more good-looking people will, on balance, tend to receive better reactions. To state otherwise goes clearly against observed psychological behavioural patterns.
PS (Edit): Equally irrelevant are anecdotes along the lines of 'You know, I once knew this girl who was really pretty but she was a real b*tch' and/or 'I once knew this girl who wasn't very good-looking but was a really nice, friendly and charming person'. Individual anecdotes prove nothing, as it is quite clear that the 'charisma' scores of the individuals score are not equal. Charisma =/=Beauty, but beauty does have an effect.
Of course there are situations whereby a more good-looking person with lose out to a genuinely more charismatic person. However, given *equal* charisma, the more good-looking people will, on balance, tend to receive better reactions. To state otherwise goes clearly against observed psychological behavioural patterns.
PS (Edit): Equally irrelevant are anecdotes along the lines of 'You know, I once knew this girl who was really pretty but she was a real b*tch' and/or 'I once knew this girl who wasn't very good-looking but was a really nice, friendly and charming person'. Individual anecdotes prove nothing, as it is quite clear that the 'charisma' scores of the individuals score are not equal. Charisma =/=Beauty, but beauty does have an effect.
Last edited:
Vaxalon
First Post
The thing is, Al, that on balance, things aren't balanced.
Someone making a character, whether it's a PC or an NPC, should decide how persuasive a the character is, assign the charisma score, and then describe how that persuasiveness is exhibited.
Do you want a beautiful airhead that everyone discounts as a ditz? Take a low charisma.
Do you want a beautiful, confident sex bomb that people of both genders trip over themselves to do favors for? Take a high charisma.
Do you want an ugly brute that everyone ignores because they're too ugly to live? Take a low charisma.
Do you want a misshapen demon-spawn that people obey because of his infernal majesty? Take a high charisma.
Final analysis: Beauty is irrelevant, when creating a character, to what charisma score you assign him.
Someone making a character, whether it's a PC or an NPC, should decide how persuasive a the character is, assign the charisma score, and then describe how that persuasiveness is exhibited.
Do you want a beautiful airhead that everyone discounts as a ditz? Take a low charisma.
Do you want a beautiful, confident sex bomb that people of both genders trip over themselves to do favors for? Take a high charisma.
Do you want an ugly brute that everyone ignores because they're too ugly to live? Take a low charisma.
Do you want a misshapen demon-spawn that people obey because of his infernal majesty? Take a high charisma.
Final analysis: Beauty is irrelevant, when creating a character, to what charisma score you assign him.
It is also important to note that in a world were being a good provider and being able protect a family to raise off spring - beauty takes a back seat, the values change, charisma means something completly different.
