CHARISMA: Is it a dud score?

[Li Shenron]

Charisma is the only stat that people cheat with. Hear me out on this one. Players will place a low stat in Charisma annd then not role play it out that way. And then DMs let them get away with this type of cheating. I've seen it plenty of times and games I've played and in conversations on these boards.

But it does depend on the type of game. If I run a heavy role playing game I as DM can make strength a useless stat. Or if I let player play dumb character smart, I can make Intelligence a useless stat.

Charisma is only a dud stat when the players cheat and the DMs allows them to get away with it. Or if the DM is just not a good DM and allows characters with negativbes that don't matter.

I really think that if this happens, then the DM is not really running 3ed very well.

Stats should count to determine the outcome of a situation. Obviously they count 100% when they are physical stats. Mental stats are always subject to mix between the player and the character, but the problem you describe is bad only if the DM "forgets" about using skills or ability rolls together with the roleplay.

While downplaying your character for roleplay's sake is fine (and sometimes should even be rewarded), you cannot expect a smart player of a dumb character to purposefully botch a riddle for example, otherwise you should expect a dumb player of a smart character to roleplay his PC smarter than the player is.

But skill and ability checks help balance the two things. A player may decide to say something VERY convincing (e.g. just guess the "perfect lie" for the guard to let you pass), reward the player's idea with a circumstance bonus to the roll, but let the PC speak. A low charisma will always result in lesser chance.

The problem you mention is really a problem only when the DM lets roleplay count 100%.

 

[Li Shenron]

ANYWAY....


How come that no one has yet mention what really makes Charisma unattractive to spend points in as a secondary attribute?

IMHO the point is that (unless you have specific Cha-based features of course) Charisma is still *slightly* unattractive because only one PC in the group needs it.

If you put a dump stat into Dex or Con, you're giving up personal defense.
If you dump Wis, you lose some ST and reaction skills used for example not to be surprised.
If you dump Int, you lose skill points.
If you dump Str, you get more alienated from combat and at some point you have problems with carrying stuff.

All of these can be used as dump stat (tho I admit that I NEVER see Con below 8), sure...

But Charisma is the one that often goes like "we already have a Pal/Sor/Brd, we'll let him always speak for the group". There is no other passive _personal_ benefit unless you specifically want to keep an option.

It is however importart to notice that those options in 3ed are thankfully plenty. A Ftr/Brb could decide to have high Intimidate, a Rogue could use Feint often, a Druid or Ranger may want to focus on controlling animals. So the situation isn't bad at all IMO.

 

[tetsujin28]

I have a player that plays a melee-focused cleric; Cha 6.

That's an incredibly poor choice of dumpstat. Seeing as CHA influences one of the cleric's main powers (turn undead), that player has gimped his/herself, royally. Add to that the fact that they'll never get any followers for their religion, because they're so socially onerous.

 

[tetsujin28]

There is no other passive _personal_ benefit unless you specifically want to keep an option.

Or if the GM makes sure that all PCs get involved in social situations. Then it rapidly becomes a benefit to be at least average.

 

[Flyspeck23]

What do you think, generally speaking? Is it crap-tastic? Is it fantastic? My personal opinion is: it depends on the type of game you are playing. A heavily role-played game will probably feature lots of Charisma based skill checks, so it suddenly becomes important.

OTOH there are those "heavily role-played games" where social interaction is never rolled - the skills intimidate and diplomacy are never used.

IMHO that's not a good idea (for various reasons), but some people calling themselves "real roleplayers" are that way, when in fact they're acting like munchkins - because if a GM told me that social interaction is never rolled but played, CHA would indeed be my dumb stat, and each and every skill point would suddenly be worth more because there are less skills to choose from.

(I'm not saying that social interaction should only be rolled, mind you. First you roleplay, then you roll.)

I'm actually going to disagree with you on that one a bit. I'd actually expand the statement to cover pretty much all three mental stats. Quite frequently I've seen people putting lower numbers into, say, Int, and then just playing at their own native level of ability when it comes time to put that int to the test.

Yes, and it's harder for a GM (for me, at least) to tell people that they're acting out of character if the action is Int-related than if it's Cha-related...

 

[Yair]

That's an incredibly poor choice of dumpstat. Seeing as CHA influences one of the cleric's main powers (turn undead), that player has gimped his/herself, royally. Add to that the fact that they'll never get any followers for their religion, because they're so socially onerous.

Heh. It's a strange character.
He's taking a Barbarian 1/Cleric x build, with Str 18, Dex 18, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 6. Not your usual cleric.
Don't worry about him, he's the rules lawyer and he's good with finding effective characters. I think he's planning on an improved trip and high-maneauverability based tactic.

And he would get followers, by performing great feats of athletic prowess, strength, and courage, like a real cleric of Kord - not with facny shmancy words like those pantsy other clerics

 

[Particle_Man]

I just retired a PC because I got tired of playing an 8 Charisma. Anything can be a dump stat, it just depends on what you want to play.

-blarg

I will second an earlier poster, with caveats. The only 2 times I have seen CON as a dump stats, the characters died within 2 sessions. Both players took the hint, and ramped up CON on their next characters (I was not the DM either time, by the way).

I will say that CHR does have more reasons to be a dump stat. Every stat might be favored by class abilities, but CHR has only that. The "NPC effects" can be mitigated with skill points. Other stats have other effects: str has physical combat (including grapples, oh mage) and encumbrance. Dex has AC (just because you don't want to get physical doesn't mean they don't want to hit you, and some of them can) and a saving throw. Con is obvious, with Hp and a saving throw. Wis has a saving throw. Int is the skill point resource. Chr has...nothing. So if you are not a class that uses Chr, there is little to no reason to take it. The npc reaction modifier can be mitigated with 4 ranks in diplomacy (or other chr skills, depending on what you want to do with your "face stuff", which any character can get by 5th level and some by 1st. There is one feat in Complete Adventurer that lets you sub CHR for WIS for enchantment saves. Of course, Castles and Crusades ties each stat to a saving throw to reduce "dump statitis".

I like the "luck roll". Another option is just to fold CHR into WIS, and run with only 5 stats.

 

[Henry]

That's an incredibly poor choice of dumpstat. Seeing as CHA influences one of the cleric's main powers (turn undead), that player has gimped his/herself, royally. Add to that the fact that they'll never get any followers for their religion, because they're so socially onerous.

You don't need Turn Undead when you can plow through them with a Righteous Might and a 10 foot tall weapon. Besides, ever since Monster manual II and II, Half the undead out there have a much higher hit dice than their challenge rating, so half the undead won't be subject to turning attempts, anyway.

As for the followers, let the other holy men of his cause figure that one out - I can see building a cleric where his job is not proselytizing, but laying out punishment. Cuthbert's three church arms (the stars, billets, and cudgels) is a good example of this.

 

[Li Shenron]

Or if the GM makes sure that all PCs get involved in social situations. Then it rapidly becomes a benefit to be at least average.

Have you often seen the PCs addressed separately in an adventure scenario? It could happen, but it's usually not the common case in D&D, where challenges are typically to the group as a whole. At least for the sheer difficulty in keeping 4-5 simultaneous conversations, compared to keeping 4-5 simultaneous one-on-one combats which is fairly normal.

 

[diaglo]

Good point Crothian. I have seen that also.

ditto.

that's why i roleplay my CHA 8.

the other PCs are constantly telling me to "Shut up, shuttin' up."

nothing like being a loudmouth bore. i also stare a lot.