Charles Ryan on Adventures

[Rasyr]

So if your argument for item 1 on your list hinges on there being just "a few dozen adventures" available from 3rd parties for 3.0, I think you should fine tune that a bit.

Yeah... Yeah... Be a stikler for details...

Seriously, I wasn't trying to be very accurate with my number, just trying to illustrate a point. What I do know is that for 3.0 there were a lot of other source books out compared to adventures. Even if there were 200 adventures for the 1,000+ 3.0 books released, that is still only 20%, at the most. And no, I do not have the actual numbers.

The last time I tried to count the number of d20 products (this was close to 2 years ago), there were close to 1,700 products, and that was just going from what I found listed here on EN World.

I have no idea how many product there are now....

But in any case, 1,700 products for 1 game system (and its variants, yes). Phil Reed had all of 16 products when I did that count. He alone has likely put that number above the 2,000 mark

 

[Banshee16]

I for one like the variety of products I see, but that doesn't mean that I can't see why WotC would want to set about bringing back those customers that have fled to 3rd party OGL type games and publishers. And I think that if WotC really wants to do that, they have the resources and the talent (and the resources to gte the talent) to do just that. i mean, if you are making 3 cents a word writing for Mongoose, and WotC offers you 5, and you have kids and a mortgage and car payments, who are you going to write for?

Ok, we can agree here. I consider myself fairly open-minded. I'd be willing to look at more WotC products *if* they were made to cater to the type of gaming I like. Which isn't the "kick teh door down, steal the monster's treasure, and kill the beast" type of game that seems to be the core D&D sentiment since 3E started. This is one reason I've switched more and more to 3rd party games rather than WotC. If WotC made some products intended for a more mature (according to my definition) style of game, I'd definitely take a look.

So, if they want to create modules, great. But if they're "kick the door down" style adventures, then I'm not interested, and they still won't get my money. Although it was flawed in places, I actally liked "Prophecies of the Dragon", though my group didn't finish it. We did enjoy it though. It wasn't all about killing monsters. There was a point to it. And plenty of roleplaying opportunities. That's the kind of module I like.

I guess time will tell.

Banshee

 

[philreed]

What I wonder is how does WotC intend to make adventures profitable?

My guess would be minis-related products like the new Fane of the Drow release.

 

[Banshee16]

I'm not at home now so I don't have access to my library, but take FFG as an example [EDIT NO 2: I was actually thinking of Alderac, but I think FFG had those small adventures as well]. Their short adventures came out early, and there were lots of them. Necromancer had adventures out, some that turned into classics like Rappan Athuk, and Necropolis later on. Come to think of it, Nerco alone has "a few dozen" adventures for 3.0, if I'm not mistaken, which I might be. Privateer Press had their Witchfire-trilogy out, and Fast Forward turned out their initial trilogy (which became history for being crap on a level not seen before). Hmmm ... the Freeport trilogy from Green Ronin, Mystic Eye Games with the Pit of Loch Durnan stuff ... the list goes on and on and on.
/M

This may be true.....but some of them didn't do enough. I love Privateer. I love the setting. The Witch Blade modules came out before the setting did though....in fact, I suspect that they were so successful they spurred the company to develop the setting. But since then, there have been no further adventures. They're talking about re-releasing the trilogy now that the setting with all of its rules etc. has been released. But that's not the same. Where are the new adventures? It's evident there's a market for them.

Same thing for Midnight? The setting has done well enough that there are tonnes of other supplements....I mean, there have been something like 6-8 supplements, including one module that takes you up to lvl 5. But no other adventures so far. Why not an adventure taking characters from 5 to 10 now? More of a campaign package? The setting's selling well enough to merit a 2nd edition of the hardcover, which makes it the first D&D/D20 setting to do so, i think.

I think Sovereign Press and Sword and Sorcery (Scarred Lands) are the only companies to really do so. Sovereign Press hasn't released too many, but from what I can see, there module trilogy consists of big books that can probably sustain a group for a good 8 months of gaming each.

Those are the kinds of adventures I'd personally like to see. Bigger books with longer campaign style adventure chains for these new settings. Even if one product a year was one of these, and the rest were supplements, it would help us DMs to keep our groups running those settings and getting more use out of them, which can increase the chance that our players spend money on the more player-friendly supplements.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

What I wonder is how does WotC intend to make adventures profitable? Obviously, there is an issue with the margins on modules, else d20 never would have happened in the first place. Now, going back in, WotC must have a plan to make those modules more profitable. I am not sure, though I think one way to do it might be to make them 'complete packages' -- i.e. include battle mat scale maps, counters or at least a list of the D&D minis to be used (meaning, of course, that you'll only see encounters with creatures that have had a mini), and integrated player handouts. Perhaps they could even build them in such away that there is little to no prep time -- page 1 is an overview and/or flow chart, lots of boxed text, Core rule page references for rules, etc...

I don't get the feeling that it's the margins on modules that are the problem. They're probably no more or less expensive to make than a full campaign setting. But the problem is who buys adventures? DMs. And the typical group has 4-5 players, plus a DM. So the module is only appealing to 15-20% of the gamers out there, which means that out of the total "pool" of GMs, it has to appeal to a much higher proportion of them to generate the sales necessitated to turn a profit.

That's my understanding of the situation though.

I think the companies (WotC included) need to look at modules like loss leaders. They have to acknowledge that they may not make as much money on them as they do on supplements and campaign settings, but they're vital to the industry as a whole.

And this is probably far easier for WotC to do than it is for the 3rd party publishers, since because of their size....though I have no idea if this is right, or completely off-base.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

My guess would be minis-related products like the new Fane of the Drow release.

Which again is something many of us aren't interested in. I don't want to pay money for some battle scenarios. I want a plot. I want opportunities for things other than a keyed map with some encounters written up. If WotC's answer to the lack of adventures is the above, then they may still be barking up the wrong tree.

Banshee

 

[mythusmage]

SRD Advice

Write it first. Start work on your project by doing up an outline. As you work on the outline decide on the mechanics you'll be including, both from other sources and original. When you've decided on the mechanics to be included write up a project bible; a project SRD those who work on the project will follow. Be sure to enforce project discipline, but be ready to change things when problems show up and things need to be changed.

Keep the SRD to the basics. Just the mechanics, save the rest for the project. The project is where you incorporate all the stuff that (one hopes) leads people to buy it. You have a nifty new Prestige Class, the project SRD is where you write up the mechanics and basic description. The full description, how the PRC fits into the project, their history, how the project's society views the PRC, that sort of thing, is put into the project.

Think of the project SRD has the framework that supports the project. The project is built upon the project SRD, instead of the project SRD being extracted from the project.

And make sure you add enough value that people are willing to pay for the project. Unique spell names for example, the sort of thing that establishes a feel to the porject that gets people intriqued, looking forward to running or adventuring in the world of the project.

It's not a guaranteed gambit, but the better you do it the better your chances.

BTW, if you still don't succeed ask yourself this question, "What did we do wrong?" From that comes the question, "How can we do better?" Sales may not be the best feedback on your work, but it's a damn sight better than most. When sales are bad maybe you should rethink your approach and try something different. And just as important, know the audience you're aiming for. Write for that audience, and be sure to make as clear as possible what you intend to achieve and who your project is aimed at.

Example: Boggarts in the Barn: A Grossly Unbalanced and Blatantly Unfair Adventure for 1 or more players of any level. A scenario intended to make even major deities tear their hair out in frustration, but solvable even by 1st level characters who use their brains for something besides skull filler. Intended for DMs and players who enjoy intrigue, conspiracy, negotiation, and the occasional bout of battle. You're looking for a wargame, this is not for you.

Hope this helps.

 

[Vocenoctum]

And there was no SRD file in the 80s. You bought the books. Your friends bought the books.

The player base has changed considerably too. My games are online now, so book sharing is no longer possible.

This is another case where WotC releasing the SRD -- for publishers -- is making some people think everything should be free. The SRD exists so that publishers will create products that then support the products the SRD was built from.

They created the OGL and SRD for publishers, they put it online for everyone. To believe that the SRD is only for publishers is a bit self centered. It is a resource that WotC has made available to everyone that wants it.

And again, to say I want material for free is simply misrepresenting what I said throughout. If you want to debate whether an SRD can fall under product support, fine, but to say I want free material is just an invention of those who don't want to understand what I'm saying.

 

[Vocenoctum]

2) Cross-polization of development - This is another failure. Those products that include material from products produced by other companies stand out as the exceptions. They are not the rule. The total number is just a tiny fraction of the total number of d20 products produced and IIRC, none of them are from before 3.5 was released (I could be wrong about this, am just saying that I don't remember any).

Thus, this goal also failed overall as well.

I'll go a step further, (and this goes under #1 too I guess) but it seems like companies don't even build on their own products.

Take WotC as an example, the books are to require minimal material (or, no material) other than the Core's (i.e. the SRD). So, you'll see a psionic feat or four, but not a whole lot of material.

The other publishers don't really support past D20 stuff, it's rare for material to build on previous material, unless it's a totally seperate OGL Game (like, M&M products all build off M&M core, obviously). They've gone so far in making sure you don't require 30 different books, and that everything is modular, that I think there's little sense of an evolving system in most OGL/D20/D&D stuff.

That's part of why the D20 Glut was so bad, IMO. Those early books you bought haven't been advanced on. There may be an alternative system for naval battles, but no one has invested in one and added to it and grown it and such. So instead of adding to past successes, we get alternatives. If the earlier material were SRD'd, and built on, I think there'd be advancement. Instead we eventually get a PDF copy of the ancient book.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think Sovereign Press and Sword and Sorcery (Scarred Lands) are the only companies to really do so. Sovereign Press hasn't released too many, but from what I can see, there module trilogy consists of big books that can probably sustain a group for a good 8 months of gaming each.

Soveriegn's mega campaign is three books (book 1 I have, book 2 I need, book 3 isn't out yet). It's very good overall, though I had several problems with it, nothing major. A couple players couldn't get past their DL bias though, so that campaign died.