D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[HammerMan]

So where do you draw the line then? If completely non-magically talking to someone can be unethical mind control, it is starting to get pretty damn vague...

my dad.

My dad conned a woman out of her family home
My dad sold the same car to two diffrent people then convinced the police that it was the two people fault.
My dad litteraly (finally) almost went to jail for manipulating people in and around an election...

It seems black and white who the bad guy is.

 

[HammerMan]

This is where you've lost me.

We're now down to everyone is evil.

no

I have never tried to force my will on another. Even in this thread I have spoken and let others speak. My father would have you all agreeing with him (what ever side he was on) through tricks and word play. the very fact that we can all argue in 100 threads about 100 diffrent things shows that none of us are manipulative enough to do it...

 

[ad_hoc]

and yes again, in a story where we are in the minds of the characters we can root for mind control as a last resort... but would not want it in real life at all.

I don't think they always used them as a last resort.

I'm pretty sure there was some casual uses esp. in stealth scenarios. Mental distractions or momentary coercions to look the other way or open a door and such.

Actual dominate person scenarios happened very rarely but low level charms and illusions? They didn't happen often but not so rarely to be considered last resort. They still had those powers and there were no rules or anything barring them from using them.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

my dad.

My dad conned a woman out of her family home
My dad sold the same car to two diffrent people then convinced the police that it was the two people fault.
My dad litteraly (finally) almost went to jail for manipulating people in and around an election...

It seems black and white who the bad guy is.

So this is about your personal issues then? Again, here the objectives and end results are not nice, but it is not mind control. Yes, conning people is bad, but some people use their amazing social skills to be performers, motivational speakers, human rights lawyers or politicians or influencers that advocate for important causes.

 

[ad_hoc]

no

I have never tried to force my will on another. Even in this thread I have spoken and let others speak. My father would have you all agreeing with him (what ever side he was on) through tricks and word play. the very fact that we can all argue in 100 threads about 100 diffrent things shows that none of us are manipulative enough to do it...

I think we can all agree that when villains do mind control it is bad.

What we're really talking about is whether it is bad when the heroes do it. When the heroes in stories do it, it isn't framed as conning people or being manipulative. It is being charming and convincing people to listen to reason or to open their heart.

You've concentrated on the villains in your remarks and have largely ignored examples of heroes doing it.

So we are either where we started which is 'villains = bad' or at this point you're saying 'everyone = villains'.

 

[HammerMan]

So this is about your personal issues then? Again, here the objectives and end results are not nice, but it is not mind control. Yes, conning people is bad, but some people use their amazing social skills to be performers, motivational speakers, human rights lawyers or politicians or influencers that advocate for important causes.

and how many of them force there way on others?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

and how many of them force there way on others?

Considering that your definition of 'force' seems to be "convince someone to do something they initially didn't want to", most of them who have been successful.

 

[HammerMan]

I think we can all agree that when villains do mind control it is bad.

What we're really talking about is whether it is bad when the heroes do it. When the heroes in stories do it, it isn't framed as conning people or being manipulative. It is being charming and convincing people to listen to reason or to open their heart.

You've concentrated on the villains in your remarks and have largely ignored examples of heroes doing it.

So we are either where we started which is 'villains = bad' or at this point you're saying 'everyone = villains'.

okay, so since we have to lay this out... lets go heroes...

Paul from dune was brought up along with the bene jesuits... I wouldn't count them.
Xaiver has been raked over the coals as an antagonist for at least the last 15 years so useing him is hard, especially in current Krarkoa form
Obiwan Konobie has the jedi mind trick twice that I recall "you don't want to sell me death stix you want to go home and think about your life" and the more famous "these are not the droids you are looking for" however he is also a lier and manipulator who when called out on being both he justfies it "from a citron point of view"

I did post above in an X men line about all three telepaths and that a) they are reluctent to use mind control/charm (when written as heroes) and b) when they do use it it is somthing they feel bad about.

Bran in game of thrones (all of the starks if you count worging) are dominating and they go out of there way to show what that is like for poor hodur (and i would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks that Bran wasn't doing it for the greater good)

so please... give me a hero to use.

 

[HammerMan]

Considering that your definition of 'force' seems to be "convince someone to do something they initially didn't want to", most of them who have been successful.

now that is such a leap I think it counts as flying...

when did I say that again?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

now that is such a leap I think it counts as flying...

when did I say that again?

When you talked about conmen convincing people to do things. But provide another definition then!