D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[HammerMan]

Why? There's literally no way to stop them that isn't some sort of violation. Why is it evil to stop evil?

it isn't evil to stop evil... but you almost always end up with useing evil means to stop evil...

 

[Faolyn]

man and it all comes full circle back to DUNE

I've never seen or read Dune. I tried to read the book once but I found I didn't like anyone in it.

 

[Remathilis]

Then mind control cannot. It’s literally just a type of rape.

Can that be extended to other types of magic though?

Is a spell that robs you of your senses (blindness/deafness) a type of rape?

Is a spell that robs you of your mobility or control of your body (hold person) a type of rape?

Is a spell that forces you have unwanted emotions (cause fear, calm emotions) a type of rape?

Is a spell that reads your mind unwillingly (detect thoughts) a type of rape?

Is a spell that summons creatures to fight and die for you a type of rape?

Is spells that perfectly fool your senses (illusions) a type of rape?

Is spells that allow you to watch a person undetected (scry or even invisibility) a type of rape?

I'm not necessarily arguing charm spells aren't, but I'd like to see what else should be called out for similar treatment.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

But is charm person even mind control? Because swashbucklers can do the same effect without magic, and it is kinda hard to argue that panache is mind control...

 

[HammerMan]

Can that be extended to other types of magic though?

yes

Is a spell that robs you of your senses (blindness/deafness) a type of rape?

I'm not sure on this one I would think this is more damaging then violation...but maybe

Is a spell that robs you of your mobility or control of your body (hold person) a type of rape?

YES

Is a spell that forces you have unwanted emotions (cause fear, calm emotions) a type of rape?

YES

Is a spell that reads your mind unwillingly (detect thoughts) a type of rape?

YES... infact I am pretty sure if you google mind rape that is what you will get more often then not...detect thoughts type things

Is a spell that summons creatures to fight and die for you a type of rape?

no, well maybe. It depends on the willingness of the summoned and the mechanics (in game not out) of the spell

Is spells that perfectly fool your senses (illusions) a type of rape?

no, but it is deception.

Is spells that allow you to watch a person undetected (scry or even invisibility) a type of rape?

no, but it is an invasion of privacy.

I'm not necessarily arguing charm spells aren't, but I'd like to see what else should be called out for similar treatment.

I am pretty sure 9/10th of the PHB... to one degree or another. Charm just REALLY rubbs me the worng way and I have been threatening to make this thread for about a year (maybe more then a year I joked at christmas last year about it...so over a year)

 

[ad_hoc]

Example one.

Someone in a panic is running away and about to jump threw a window they wrongly think is on the first floor.

Is it good to mind control them to stop them (Professor Xavier style from the X-men movies) from unknowingly jumping out the eighth floor?

The X-Men is a good example to look at. They have multiple members who are capable of mind control. In fact, the hero of the story, Xavier, is the mind controller rather than the 'villain' of Magneto.

(please forgive if there are errors here it's been over 20 years since I've read comics).

Let's take Xavier, Jean Grey (Phoenix), and Psylocke.

Xavier is immensely powerful but rarely uses his powers as it would be immoral to do so. Mostly he is seen doing so to locate mutants or to heal trauma. He doesn't have telekinetic powers so if directly threatened he will use mind control to defend himself.

Then we have Jean Grey. She usually uses telekinesis and mostly saves telepathy for communicating between the team. She doesn't use her mind control powers often. Her powers as phoenix were more physically destructive and often manifested in fire than mind control.

Psylocke started out as a sort of Jean Grey-lite. Both telepathy and telekinesis (more of psionic blasts). She could mind control but mostly didn't, using telepathy for communication and defense. After she was turned into a ninja she concentrated her psionic powers into 'psy-blades' which she used to 'physically' attack people in melee essentially doing psychic damage.

It stands to reason that telekinesis is thought to be more moral than mind control in the X-Men comics. However, the heroes still had mind control powers and sometimes used them in various ways.

 

[HammerMan]

But is charm person even mind control? Because swashbucklers can do the same effect without magic, and it is kinda hard to argue that panache is mind control...

as I said, yes I would.
Salesmen do it. Con men do it. Cult leaders do it. People also do it with drugs.

Magical mind control is different then real world mind control. but yes it is still forceing an effect on someone

 

[Crimson Longinus]

as I said, yes I would.
Salesmen do it. Con men do it. Cult leaders do it. People also do it with drugs.

Magical mind control is different then real world mind control. but yes it is still forceing an effect on someone

So where do you draw the line then? If completely non-magically talking to someone can be unethical mind control, it is starting to get pretty damn vague...

 

[ad_hoc]

as I said, yes I would.
Salesmen do it. Con men do it. Cult leaders do it. People also do it with drugs.

Magical mind control is different then real world mind control. but yes it is still forceing an effect on someone

This is where you've lost me.

We're now down to everyone is evil.

 

[HammerMan]

The X-Men is a good example to look at. They have multiple members who are capable of mind control. In fact, the hero of the story, Xavier, is the mind controller rather than the 'villain' of Magneto.

yup here we go down the rabbit hole that is House of X...

(please forgive if there are errors here it's been over 20 years since I've read comics).

oh, okay, then you know good xaiver (I think 2001 was before any of the BS)

Xavier is immensely powerful but rarely uses his powers as it would be immoral to do so. Mostly he is seen doing so to locate mutants or to heal trauma. He doesn't have telekinetic powers so if directly threatened he will use mind control to defend himself.

and (agian 20 years ago) normally even when used as a last resort feel really bad about it.

Then we have Jean Grey. She usually uses telekinesis and mostly saves telepathy for communicating between the team. She doesn't use her mind control powers often. Her powers as phoenix were more physically destructive and often manifested in fire than mind control.

yes although she DID kill someone in the 80's by turning off there mind... it was in defense of children (hey look at the earlier doing something bad to stop something bad) and again felt very bad about it

Psylocke started out as a sort of Jean Grey-lite. Both telepathy and telekinesis (more of psionic blasts). She could mind control but mostly didn't, using telepathy for communication and defense. After she was turned into a ninja she concentrated her psionic powers into 'psy-blades' which she used to 'physically' attack people in melee essentially doing psychic damage.

It stands to reason that telekinesis is thought to be more moral than mind control in the X-Men comics. However, the heroes still had mind control powers and sometimes used them in various ways.

and yes again, in a story where we are in the minds of the characters we can root for mind control as a last resort... but would not want it in real life at all.