D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[Voadam]

But name me one instance of mind control being used for legitimate good.

Example one.

Someone in a panic is running away and about to jump threw a window they wrongly think is on the first floor.

Is it good to mind control them to stop them (Professor Xavier style from the X-men movies) from unknowingly jumping out the eighth floor?

Example Two.

The Borg are overwhelming the Enterprise and Data is scared and panicking. Piccard recognizes this and orders Data to disconnect his emotion chip. Data follows the order and mind controls himself by taking out his emotions chip to deal with the situation without panic.

Substitute D&D paladin remove fear abilities.

Example three.

Someone has OCD they don't want. They ask a mind controller to suppress or eliminate their OCD, so it is consensual mind control to achieve a desired quality of life improvement.

 

[HammerMan]

First, we're assuming that attempted murder is a crime in a fantasy world. Depending on the world or city, the guards and judges may not care what people in certain social classes do amongst themselves. Peasants can kill each other. Nobles can challenge each other to duels. Maybe it's perfectly normal for people to send assassins after their rivals, and if you get killed, it's your fault for not being alert enough and having good enough defenses. Nobody cares, except that you got in the way.

man and it all comes full circle back to DUNE

 

[HammerMan]

Example one.

Someone in a panic is running away and about to jump threw a window they wrongly think is on the first floor.

Is it good to mind control them to stop them (Professor Xavier style from the X-men movies) from unknowingly jumping out the eighth floor?

Example Two.

The Borg are overwhelming the Enterprise and Data is scared and panicking. Piccard recognizes this and orders Data to disconnect his emotion chip. Data follows the order and mind controls himself by taking out his emotions chip to deal with the situation without panic.

Substitute D&D paladin remove fear abilities.

Example three.

Someon has OCD they don't want. They ask a mind controller to suppress or eliminate their OCD, so it is consensual mind control to achieve a desired quality of life improvement.

I literally said in the OP that we could fill a thread with dumb examples like this (two (2&3)of witch are not charm/dominate/suggestion at all I might add) but yes... even when you have a good end controlling someone's emotions, reading there thoughts and controlling there minds are pretty scary bad things to do. You can make an argument for reading minds with consent.

 

[ad_hoc]

If you think paul is the hero of the story please what ever you do, don't look into the books or any further into Hurberts' message.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I said protagonist not hero. He was the protagonist of the movie.

And I said the moment was not portrayed as morally bad in the movie.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Why should someone's will to commit murder be valid? If it's not valid, then violating that invalid will is not an evil act.

The validity of someone’s intent is irrelevant. Someone who intends to murder should be stopped, but doing so by violating them is obviously evil.

 

[Maxperson]

The purpose of a hammer--and here we'll go with a ball peen, claw, or sledge, not a warhammer--is to hammer in nails, hit chisels or punches, and break inanimate objects. It can also be used to kill someone, but that's not its actual stated purpose. It's not built to be a weapon.

A mind-control spell's actual, stated purpose is to take over someone else's mind, thoughts, and emotions and deprive them of their free will. There is literally no other purpose for a mind-control spell. In fact, they literally can't be used for any other purpose.

Who is to say that the purpose those spells were created for were not only good(ie saving people from murder or rape)?

Do you understand the difference here?

Yes. You're talking to the specific purpose of the hammer, but over generalizing with the mind control spells. If you want to generalize the hammer to a similar degree, the hammer was created to bash things, which would include heads.

And I consider taking over someone else's mind, thoughts, and emotions and depriving them of their free will to be an evil act.

Cool. This is the same as me considering cannibalism to be an evil act. Free will by the way, is like free speech. It's not actually free. There are limitations on both and you aren't allowed to do either one unfettered.

But how do you know they were actually going to kill the person?

The three shots they fired that missed the person might be a clue.

I said they were in the process of committing the murder, so it's clear that somehow you know.

First, we're assuming that attempted murder is a crime in a fantasy world. Depending on the world or city, the guards and judges may not care what people in certain social classes do amongst themselves. Peasants can kill each other. Nobles can challenge each other to duels. Maybe it's perfectly normal for people to send assassins after their rivals, and if you get killed, it's your fault for not being alert enough and having good enough defenses. Nobody cares, except that you got in the way.

These are pretty silly examples, but I guess some corner case ridiculousness might be created by a DM. I mean, the only example I can really think of is Drow society, and that society really doesn't make sense if you look at it closer than say 3 miles.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Rape cannot.

Then mind control cannot. It’s literally just a type of rape.

 

[Maxperson]

The validity of someone’s intent is irrelevant. Someone who intends to murder should be stopped, but doing so by violating them is obviously evil.

Why? There's literally no way to stop them that isn't some sort of violation. Why is it evil to stop evil?

 

[Faolyn]

Example one.
Someone in a panic is running away and about to jump threw a window they wrongly think is on the first floor.

Is it good to mind control them to stop them (Professor Xavier style from the X-men movies) from unknowingly jumping out the eighth floor?

Why is this person in a panic and thinking they're on the first floor? Because depending on the circumstances, this could be removing fear from a person, not taking over their mind.

If this is just a normal panic and/or delusion, this is using an evil action to a good end.

Example Two.

The Borg are overwhelming the Enterprise and Data is scared and panicking. Piccard recognizes this and orders Data to disconnect his emotion chip. Data follows the order and mind controls himself by taking out his emotions chip to deal with the situation without panic.

Data would have the option of disobeying the orders, just like every other Starfleet officer has. There would be consequences, yes, but again, just like every other Starfleet officer would face if they disobeyed an order (and I have a hard time believing that Picard would write Data up or throw him in the brig or something for disobeying this order).

Also, in this case, it boils down to him being a consenting adult who is choosing to disconnect his own chip. This isn't mind control, anymore than a person who is into meditation (or taking a mind-influencing drug) is mind controlling themself.

Substitute D&D paladin remove fear abilities.

Again, something that is consensual and, in this case (as with the X-Men example above) more protective than actual mind control.

Although, at my table, the players (due to in-character things) usually ask one another (in-character) if it's OK to cast spells on each other.

Example three.

Someone has OCD they don't want. They ask a mind controller to suppress or eliminate their OCD, so it is consensual mind control to achieve a desired quality of life improvement.

Again, consent is the key.

In D&D, nobody is saying, "Hey, you guards, mind if I cast charm person on you so I don't have to kill you?" That would be ridiculous.

 

[HammerMan]

You're putting words in my mouth.

I said protagonist not hero. He was the protagonist of the movie.

And I said the moment was not portrayed as morally bad in the movie.

okay, i was not trying to put words in your mouth but i was making sure becuse my fiance loved the movie (her first experence with the story) then heard me and the guys talking about it and she now doesn't want to see the 2nd part becuse she knwos how the story of paul 'ends'

i was genuian with my "don't look if you enjoyed it"