D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

Faolyn

(she/her)
And I can guarantee you that pretty close to 100% would think that if only used to stop people attempting to murder or rape, it would be a good thing.
And how do you guarantee that it would only be used to stop murder or rape, and not all the other things that are potentially dangerous? Aggressive driving? Buying or selling weapons? Drinking alcohol or taking recreational drugs? Eating too much?

How is the would be murderer harmed if he is stopped from murdering someone and then released?
Attempted murder isn't a crime?

But anyway, what's to stop this person from trying to murder again? Are you going to rewrite his personality so he would never try again? Put him under 24-hour surveillance?
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And how do you guarantee that it would only be used to stop murder or rape, and not all the other things that are potentially dangerous?
I don't have to. You can't guarantee that the hammer sold at DIY won't be used to bash someone's head in. The ability to use a tool for evil doesn't make the tool evil.
Attempted murder isn't a crime?
What does this have to do with my question?
But anyway, what's to stop this person from trying to murder again?
Prison time for attempting to murder someone?
Are you going to rewrite his personality so he would never try again?
Nope.
Put him under 24-hour surveillance?
Does prison count?
 

HammerMan

Legend
This is an argument that boils down to it's okay to decide to, and go through with murder. After all, stopping someone from committing murdering is forcing your values and beliefs on him.

ok first, I totally said if you would clairfy what you meant as proof I would try to provide it and you said I was twisting you words... then you say (after I have repeatedly said that it is doing a bad thing to stop a bad thing and has a good outcome) that I want to just let murderers murder people...

use of force is a problem. sometimes you use force to stop others from using force. If you use MORE force then you are stopping you are really in diccy ground. none of that has anything to do with mental autonomy.

I very much disagree with that.
so does everyone in the thread... but you like to pretend otherwise
I've provided the same amount of proof of that act being good that you have for it being evil. You made the original claim, you need to back it up with more than, "This is what I believe."
Okay, so then you admit that you are intirely adding nothing here...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Okay, so then you admit that you are intirely adding nothing here...
It takes a lot of cajones to after adding nothing at all to back up his opinion, accuse someone else of adding nothing.

I'm done discussing this with you. You've made a claim that mind control is always evil and refuse to back it up with any kind of proof, instead just evading and twisting arguments. I'll discuss this with someone else who actually wants to engage in a discussion.
 

HammerMan

Legend
You can't imagine a instance where dominate could be used for good? I can. To stop a murder in the act of being committed.
yes a bad thing can be used to stop another bad thing.

War is bad
NUking a city is bad

You can end a war (Good end somthing bad) by nuking a city (wait back to bad) end result can even be less people die... but you still killed a city

 

HammerMan

Legend
It takes a lot of cajones to after adding nothing at all to back up his opinion, accuse someone else of adding nothing.

I'm done discussing this with you. You've made a claim that mind control is always evil and refuse to back it up with any kind of proof, instead just evading and twisting arguments. I'll discuss this with someone else who actually wants to engage in a discussion.
I put forward my argument 17 pages ago, I even put your exact thing (use a bad thing to stop a bad or worse thing) in my OP... you just ignore anything you don't like.
 


HammerMan

Legend
I don't have to. You can't guarantee that the hammer sold at DIY won't be used to bash someone's head in. The ability to use a tool for evil doesn't make the tool evil.

What does this have to do with my question?

Prison time for attempting to murder someone?

Nope.

Does prison count?
btw you would more likely then not have to atleast be arrested and talk to the DA to prove your use of force was justified (not right but justified) then you could be sued in civil court for it...
 

HammerMan

Legend
Your OP had no proof in it. Just claims.
and again I ask what proof you want? It is something that is not possible in real life so I can't show you a law...

The closest I can come is to show you that drugging someone to make them plyable to your wants (aka charm spell) is illegal and considered immoral.

FOrceing someone under threat to do something that is not out of character for them but isn't what they want to do right now is opening up a can of worms nobody wants on enworld (suggestion)

those are the closest real world things to charm/suggestion/dominate... so other then going into Marvel comics or Babylon 5 what do you want?
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I don't have to. You can't guarantee that the hammer sold at DIY won't be used to bash someone's head in. The ability to use a tool for evil doesn't make the tool evil.
The purpose of a hammer--and here we'll go with a ball peen, claw, or sledge, not a warhammer--is to hammer in nails, hit chisels or punches, and break inanimate objects. It can also be used to kill someone, but that's not its actual stated purpose. It's not built to be a weapon.

A mind-control spell's actual, stated purpose is to take over someone else's mind, thoughts, and emotions and deprive them of their free will. There is literally no other purpose for a mind-control spell. In fact, they literally can't be used for any other purpose.

Do you understand the difference here?

And I consider taking over someone else's mind, thoughts, and emotions and depriving them of their free will to be an evil act.

Now yes, you can do it for good reasons--such as stopping someone from killing someone else--but you are using an evil action to do good. Maybe you feel that the ends always justify the means. Maybe in a case like this, the ends do justify the means. But it's still evil means.

What does this have to do with my question?

Prison time for attempting to murder someone?
But how do you know they were actually going to kill the person?

Nope.

Does prison count?
Nope.

First, we're assuming that attempted murder is a crime in a fantasy world. Depending on the world or city, the guards and judges may not care what people in certain social classes do amongst themselves. Peasants can kill each other. Nobles can challenge each other to duels. Maybe it's perfectly normal for people to send assassins after their rivals, and if you get killed, it's your fault for not being alert enough and having good enough defenses. Nobody cares, except that you got in the way.

Or it could be that the victim was part of an underclass or race that could be killed with impunity. Imagine if the victim was a goblin or kobold citizen in a predominately human city. Hmm, would you even bother mind-controlling the attacker in this case?

And in a realistic setting, the punishment might be death by hanging at dawn, in which case all you did was delay the inevitable by a few hours. Either that, or rotting away in a prison where the conditions are so terrible as to be considered torture by modern (i.e., player) standards.

As @HammerMan said, drugging someone, coercion, blackmail, brainwashing, gaslighting, etc., are all either illegal or considered to be horribly immoral. All of these things can, technically, be used for "good" purposes--but that doesn't stop everyone from realizing that these are illegal or immoral.

So why should mind-control magic be any different?
 

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