D&D (2024) Is Friends + Beguiling Twist OP?

[ECMO3]

I have a lot of experience playing Fey Wanderers in 2014 and I am playing my first in 2024. I think I found an exploit in the new rules with the Friends spell. The PC has Magic Initiate (Wizard), so I can get Friends at level up.

Here is the wording for Friends and Beguiling Twist. Note the underlined:

Friends:
"You magically emanate a sense of friendship toward one creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. The target succeeds automatically if it isn’t a Humanoid, if you’re fighting it, or if you have cast this spell on it within the past 24 hours."

Beguiling Twist (relevant part):
In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can take a Reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the target is Charmed or Frightened (your choice) for 1 minute. The target repeats the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

The wording on Friends makes it an automatic successful save instead of being immune to the spell if used in combat. The way I read this is I can spam Friends resource free in combat and it automatically triggers a successful save and therefore beguiling twist on another enemy, which is essentially like a concentration-free Cause Fear.

 

[aco175]

I kind of go with the point of: if you do not roll a die to make the save, you did not actually succeed in a saving throw.

 

[FarBeyondC]

I have a lot of experience playing Fey Wanderers in 2014 and I am playing my first in 2024. I think I found an exploit in the new rules with the Friends spell. The PC has Magic Initiate (Wizard), so I can get Friends at level up.

Here is the wording for Friends and Beguiling Twist. Note the underlined:

Friends:
"You magically emanate a sense of friendship toward one creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. The target succeeds automatically if it isn’t a Humanoid, if you’re fighting it, or if you have cast this spell on it within the past 24 hours."

Beguiling Twist (relevant part):
In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can take a Reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the target is Charmed or Frightened (your choice) for 1 minute. The target repeats the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

The wording on Friends makes it an automatic successful save instead of being immune to the spell if used in combat. The way I read this is I can spam Friends resource free in combat and it automatically triggers a successful save and therefore beguiling twist on another enemy, which is essentially like a concentration-free Cause Fear.

I wouldn't call it OP, but it technically works (except the DMG apparently have a couple of rules/guidance that can block it).

 

[Dausuul]

I have a lot of experience playing Fey Wanderers in 2014 and I am playing my first in 2024. I think I found an exploit in the new rules with the Friends spell. The PC has Magic Initiate (Wizard), so I can get Friends at level up.

Here is the wording for Friends and Beguiling Twist. Note the underlined:

Friends:
"You magically emanate a sense of friendship toward one creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. The target succeeds automatically if it isn’t a Humanoid, if you’re fighting it, or if you have cast this spell on it within the past 24 hours."

Beguiling Twist (relevant part):
In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can take a Reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the target is Charmed or Frightened (your choice) for 1 minute. The target repeats the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

The wording on Friends makes it an automatic successful save instead of being immune to the spell if used in combat. The way I read this is I can spam Friends resource free in combat and it automatically triggers a successful save and therefore beguiling twist on another enemy, which is essentially like a concentration-free Cause Fear.

By RAW, this does indeed work.

Whether a fix is required, and -- if so -- what that fix should be, is an interesting question. Beguiling Twist is a 7th-level ranger subclass ability, so you're already heavily invested in a class with solid at-will attacks; this trick is competing with just shooting arrows, and costs your reaction. You also need an origin feat or a multiclass dip to gain access to Friends.

Now, you could instead do this as a tag-team with a full caster. Full casters have weak at-will options and don't have to use a feat to get Friends, so it's more efficient use of party resources all around. On the other hand, a full caster is going to be using much bigger guns in a serious fight, so this would only be useful in low-stakes combats.

So I don't think it breaks anything to leave it as is. It's a nice tactical option but far from a no-brainer. If you take it (and your DM is okay with it), I'd love to hear how it works out in play.

If I did set out to fix it, I think I would do it by tweaking Friends to simply have no effect on invalid targets (no saving throw at all) rather than granting auto-success on the save. My first instinct was to change Beguiling Twist to not trigger on auto-success, but then I considered things like Legendary Resistance.

Personally, if I were building a ranger to use this, I would pick up Find Familiar with the same feat I used to get Friends, and then impose a rule on myself that I can only use the trick by targeting my familiar with Friends. Then I can describe it as my familiar empowering my fey magic.

 

[Selas]

I kind of go with the point of: if you do not roll a die to make the save, you did not actually succeed in a saving throw.

This. Automatically succeeding is not the same as actually doing a DC saving throw.

I wouldn't call it OP, but it technically works (except the DMG apparently have a couple of rules/guidance that can block it).

Yep. Here's the exact guidance from a section in page 19 of the 2024 DMG: Players Exploiting the Rules

"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."

 

[Selas]

By RAW, this does indeed work.

Whether a fix is required, and -- if so -- what that fix should be, is an interesting question. Beguiling Twist is a 7th-level ranger subclass ability, so you're already heavily invested in a class with solid at-will attacks; this trick is competing with just shooting arrows, and costs your reaction. You also need a feat or a multiclass dip to gain access to Friends. I don't think it breaks anything to leave it as is. It's a nice tactical option but far from a no-brainer.

If I did set out to fix it, I think I would do it by tweaking Friends to simply have no effect on invalid targets (no saving throw at all) rather than granting auto-success on the save. My first instinct was to change Beguiling Twist to not trigger on auto-success, but then I considered things like Legendary Resistance.

Personally, if I were building a ranger to use this, I would pick up Find Familiar with the same feat I used to get Friends, and then impose a rule on myself that I can only use the trick by targeting my familiar. Then I can explain it as my familiar empowering my fey magic.

RAI it's clear Friends is intended to only work on Humanoids and it's merely a victim of how it was written. It's such a trivial thing that I don't think it will be errata'ed. It's clear it's not meant to work with Beguiling Senses in the way the first post suggests.

This reminds me of Pack Tactics latest video where he claims the Rod of the Pact Keeper is now OP because it doesn't specify anymore that it restores a Warlock spell slot. Even if somehow a DM buys into that, Bad Faith interpretations are still that at the end of the day

 

[ECMO3]

Beguiling Twist is a 7th-level ranger ability, so you're already heavily invested in a class with solid at-will attacks; this trick is competing with just shooting arrows, and costs your reaction. You also need a feat or a multiclass dip to gain access to Friends. I don't think it breaks anything to leave it as is. It's a nice tactical option but far from a no-brainer.

Yeah it is going to be quite a bit more powerful than just firing arrows once you get summon Fey (and especially when you get Fey Reinforcements). Part of this is it chains in future rounds when the enemy saves against Beguling Twist and does not require concentration.

Round over round BT is a multiplier and once you get 2 or 3 charms/fears going you get a big boost in action economy as you start using your reaction every round. You can do this with multiple castings of Summon [Mirthful] Fey at level 11+ but that burns up spell slots quickly.

 

[Selas]

deleted as it repeated

 

[Umbran]

The wording on Friends makes it an automatic successful save instead of being immune to the spell if used in combat. The way I read this is I can spam Friends resource free in combat and it automatically triggers a successful save and therefore beguiling twist on another enemy, which is essentially like a concentration-free Cause Fear.

The simple reading the GM can use to stall this is that, while a cantrip, it takes an action to cast Friends. And that means you are not using an action to attack the target. At some point, if you aren't attacking, the GM can reasonably say you aren't really fighting the creature any more.

 

[Dausuul]

Yeah it is going to be quite a bit more powerful than just firing arrows once you get summon Fey (and especially when you get Fey Reinforcements). Part of this is it chains in future rounds when the enemy saves against Beguling Twist and does not require concentration.

Round over round BT is a multiplier and once you get 2 or 3 charms/fears going you get a big boost in action economy as you start using your reaction every round. You can do this with multiple castings of Summon [Mirthful] Fey at level 11+ but that burns up spell slots quickly.

I had not considered the "chaining" of Beguiling Twist. But that would be an issue with BT being able to trigger from itself. I mean, what happens if the party wizard opens combat with Fear? That's a strong opener anyway, and a Fey Wanderer could really amplify it.

Anyway, like I said, I'd love to hear how this works out in actual play.