D&D (2024) Is Friends + Beguiling Twist OP?

[Dausuul]

The simple reading the GM can use to stall this is that, while a cantrip, it takes an action to cast Friends. And that means you are not using an action to attack the target. At some point, if you aren't attacking, the GM can reasonably say you aren't really fighting the creature any more.

That's some very risky logic. It opens the door for all kinds of ploys to get around restrictions against using spells in combat.

I think it's much better to just change Friends so there's no save at all against an invalid target. Or simply leave it be.

 

[Umbran]

That's some very risky logic.
It opens the door for all kinds of ploys to get around restrictions against using spells in combat.

Well, the question itself is based on someone using a ploy to create an abusive exploit, so that door is already open.

The point is really to kick it back to DM discretion, rather than logical exploit. The GM gets to say when it is allowed, not player-interpretation of rules logic.

 

[Oofta]

I have a lot of experience playing Fey Wanderers in 2014 and I am playing my first in 2024. I think I found an exploit in the new rules with the Friends spell. The PC has Magic Initiate (Wizard), so I can get Friends at level up.

Here is the wording for Friends and Beguiling Twist. Note the underlined:

Friends:
"You magically emanate a sense of friendship toward one creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. The target succeeds automatically if it isn’t a Humanoid, if you’re fighting it, or if you have cast this spell on it within the past 24 hours."

Beguiling Twist (relevant part):
In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can take a Reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the target is Charmed or Frightened (your choice) for 1 minute. The target repeats the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

The wording on Friends makes it an automatic successful save instead of being immune to the spell if used in combat. The way I read this is I can spam Friends resource free in combat and it automatically triggers a successful save and therefore beguiling twist on another enemy, which is essentially like a concentration-free Cause Fear.

I would rule that it doesn't work, Friends effectively can't be cast in combat. Since there is no roll, there isn't really a saving throw.

 

[Mistwell]

I have a lot of experience playing Fey Wanderers in 2014 and I am playing my first in 2024. I think I found an exploit in the new rules with the Friends spell. The PC has Magic Initiate (Wizard), so I can get Friends at level up.

Here is the wording for Friends and Beguiling Twist. Note the underlined:

Friends:
"You magically emanate a sense of friendship toward one creature you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have the Charmed condition for the duration. The target succeeds automatically if it isn’t a Humanoid, if you’re fighting it, or if you have cast this spell on it within the past 24 hours."

Beguiling Twist (relevant part):
In addition, whenever you or a creature you can see within 120 feet of you succeeds on a saving throw to avoid or end the Charmed or Frightened condition, you can take a Reaction to force a different creature you can see within 120 feet of yourself to make a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. On a failed save, the target is Charmed or Frightened (your choice) for 1 minute. The target repeats the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.

The wording on Friends makes it an automatic successful save instead of being immune to the spell if used in combat. The way I read this is I can spam Friends resource free in combat and it automatically triggers a successful save and therefore beguiling twist on another enemy, which is essentially like a concentration-free Cause Fear.

Yes I think that's a fair reading of those rules. I am not sure it's overpowered. You're spending your action AND reaction (and had to spend a feat to get to that point) to possibly make one creature frightened with saves after each of their turns, as a 7th level ability. That seems powerful but not overpowered for a primary subclass feature and the use of a cantrip. You will usually have something better to do with your action than that but it's certainly handy, as a subclass feature should be.

 

[mellored]

RAW, yes.
RAI, no.

Also. You spend an action, a reaction, and need a familiar to bounce it off of, to maybe charm/frighten a non-humaniod for a few rounds.

That's like casting second level spell at-will. Not bad for a level 7, but hardly breaking anything.

And you already have charm person.

 

[mellored]

So while I agree casting it on a non-human falls into the bag of rats category.

What if you cast it on a human who just happens to be immune to charm?

I.e. a Barbarian standing next to a Devotion Paladin?

 

[ECMO3]

I had not considered the "chaining" of Beguiling Twist. But that would be an issue with BT being able to trigger from itself. I mean, what happens if the party wizard opens combat with Fear? That's a strong opener anyway, and a Fey Wanderer could really amplify it.

BT can definitely trigger itself, that is what makes it such an awesome ability. The Fear spell is the ideal opener, or pipes of Haunting or a Wand of Fear or something like that.

This doesn't replace that, just a way to trigger it resource free.

 

[ECMO3]

RAW, yes.
RAI, no.

Also. You spend an action, a reaction, and need a familiar to bounce it off of, to maybe charm/frighten a non-humaniod for a few rounds.

You don't need a familiar. You would use it when there are two or more enemies.

And you already have charm person.

Charm Person uses a spell slot and only can target humanoids, they don't automatically make the save (although they do get advantage) and if they get charmed there is no further saves, damaging them just cancels it

Charmed can be effective, but it is not nearly as powerful as Frightened generally.

 

[mellored]

You don't need a familiar. You would use it when there are two or more enemies.

Not if they are human enemies.
Familiar lets you bounce every time, even if there is 1 humanoid.

Charmed can be effective, but it is not nearly as powerful as Frightened generally.

Sure. But your still looking at a level ~2 spell effect, and probably have a lower DC as well.

Though I still wouldn't allow it.

 

[ECMO3]

Not if they are human enemies.
Familiar lets you bounce every time, even if there is 1 humanoid.

As long as you are in combat with them they succeed on the save, even if they are a humanoid.

Sure. But your still looking at a level ~2 spell effect, and probably have a lower DC as well.

The DC for Charm Person and the DC for Beguiling Twist are the same (as is the DC for Friends if you have that on Wisdom).

Charm Person is not very good to use in combat and it is not generally good to use with Beguiling Twist. The main problem with Charm Person is a hostile act cancels it, meaning there is no chaining it on Beguiling Twist with a downstream save. It is just over. The Charm effect from a Summoned Fey is much better and is the conrnerstone of a Fey Wanderer in terms of a Trigger that the Ranger himself can generate.

Cause Fear (2014 rules) or Wrathful Smite (2024 Rules) is what you want to use as far as 1st level spells to work with BT, but they are not on the Ranger or Fey Wanderer lists. The PC I am talking about has WS from Shadow Touched feat. I have toyed with the idea of changing the Wizard 1st level spell from Shield to Cause Fear as well, but I have not done that yet.

Frightened from Beguiling Twist is better than just about any other save or suck 1st or 2nd level spell for a couple reasons. First it is concentration free. Second it is not canceled by combat. The only other spell I can think of that is similar in both these respects is the 2024 version of Wrathful Smite. Also BT does not end with a successful save, it just retriggers your reaction to use BT again and move it to a different enemy.