D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[Maxperson]

anyone that values independent control of thought...

Why is the ability to independently control your thought to kill someone valuable?

I am pretty sure if you ask most people would think mind control =bad, at least a plurality

And I can guarantee you that pretty close to 100% would think that if only used to stop people attempting to murder or rape, it would be a good thing.

taking away someone's free will by imposing your mind magically on another seems anything BUT harmless.

How is the would be murderer harmed if he is stopped from murdering someone and then released?

 

[Maxperson]

so if someone took control (magically) of you and made you do something that you didn't want to, that is not evil, if the end result is non evil?

If I am trying to murder someone and I am stopped that way, then no it's not evil. If I'm trying to cook eggs for breakfast and someone stops me that way, then yes it's a bad thing.

I am pretty sure word lawyering this gets to ANYTHING can be good... witch goes back to persuasion, and force... this is a scary thread indeed.

Don't put words in my mouth.

in your mind someone said you said cannibalisms is always evil(maybe another thread or maybe i missed it). So if you are a survivor of a plane crash and so is your son/daughter and they are starving, it is better to let them starve then eat the dead pilot?

And I conceded to that person that nobody living would be harmed in some situations of cannibalism, so...

 

[HammerMan]

Okay, but to what end do we bring in our perspective to a game that's fundamentally about a different (fantasy) perspective?

talk about it, think about, maybe play diffrent maybe not... I have had LG characters that I have played that did things I wouldn't... this is food for thought not about removing things from the game.

I, personally, believe that RW violence is evil. So should I ban violence in the game? Judge that anyone who engages in violence (regardless of circumstances) is evil in alignment? Personally, despite my RW beliefs, I find in game combat to be fun and enjoyable.

no, but you can talk about it and think about and maybe even evaluate what you do and don't allow and why... and what parts of this power fantasy are us doing things we wouldn't.

I'm not saying the we shouldn't bring in that outside perspective. As I said upthread, rape isn't allowed in my campaigns, because of my own personal feelings. I do think it's worthwhile considering why, as well as what it adds (or subtracts) from the game. Removing rape from a campaign arguably subtracts nothing, and (I would think) makes the game more enjoyable for everyone involved. Removing mind control (or making it inherently evil) potentially denies players the fantasy of playing an enchanter, which is at least a bit of a downside.

okay removing enchanter may be subtractive... but makeing the enchanter think about what they are doing, why, and how can be great fun both at the table and on these boards.

I personally allow necromancers, and undead, and super violant rageing barbarians that solve everything with an axe... but we talk about them.

If the goal of the thread is to simply discuss the RW implications of mind control, then from a technical perspective I'm still not convinced that it's inherently evil. I think there are ethical applications, even if they are few and far between (potentially in treating mental trauma, for example). From a practical perspective, however, there's not a single human being or group that I would be willing to entrust with that kind of power, not even myself.

for this I will talk about superheroes for a moment.

When I read about superman he is insperational. He is the power fantasy not of might makes right, but what if a true good person had power... so too with spiderman, even Batman (to an extent). we can see every angle, we can read there very thoughts...

In the real world I woul NEVER trust anyone with any of the lesser powered heroes abilities... becuse we can't trust in the real world.

This doesn't mean I want every comic book to copy watchmen or batman V superman... (I like those in there small bits) or Injustice (not so much). It also doesn't mean I want to remove all superheroes... but it is something to talk about.

 

[HammerMan]

Why is the ability to independently control your thought to kill someone valuable?

because the lack of choice between good and evil is in and of itself evil... it is dictator talk... Yes Dr Doom can bring peace to the world by ruleing it... but it is an oppressive dark world with no choices. Does him stopping murder/rape/theift make that a good act?

And I can guarantee you that pretty close to 100% would think that if only used to stop people attempting to murder or rape, it would be a good thing.

again you mistake ends and means... they will 100% (unless you get a child murderer or rapest I guess) say the ends are good... it is the means they will question.

the very fact that you keep changing the means to the ends makes this discussion hard.

How is the would be murderer harmed if he is stopped from murdering someone and then released?

his mind was violated. His very will and sense of self.

 

[HammerMan]

If I am trying to murder someone and I am stopped that way, then no it's not evil. If I'm trying to cook eggs for breakfast and someone stops me that way, then yes it's a bad thing.

what if they stopped you from making the eggs because you have high cholesterol and made you make something healthier for you? What if they stopped you from smoking when you wanted to keep smoking? What if they made you choose a diffrent TV show becuse the one you choose is a bad one?

Don't put words in my mouth.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I said your argument (ends justify means) can be used to justify almost anything. it is your words your argument. Killing (bad) can be good if done for good reason...

And I conceded to that person that nobody living would be harmed in some situations of cannibalism, so...

Okay, but do you consider it always evil... I didn't ask about harm (and even in that case the family of the person you eat may be effected)

 

[Maxperson]

because the lack of choice between good and evil is in and of itself evil...

They made the choice and were allowed to make it. They were just stopped from enacting that choice.

it is dictator talk...

And I find the talk that we have to allow someone to be murdered rather than using mind control to save them to be far more evil than mind control to stop them.

Yes Dr Doom can bring peace to the world by ruleing it... but it is an oppressive dark world with no choices.

Wow. Probably a good thing that literally nobody has said that this would be okay, then.

If you have to resort to twisting words into Strawmen, perhaps you should re-examine your position. This is the second time this morning that you've done that to me.

Does him stopping murder/rape/theift make that a good act?

If rather than him ruling the world he was simply stopping acts of murder and rape(I love how you added theft in there) and then releaseing those minds, then yes those would be good acts.

they will 100% (unless you get a child murderer or rapest I guess) say the ends are good... it is the means they will question.

You overestimate how many are going to be opposed to mind control in these highly limited circumstances. Now, you'll get a lot of people who would be concerned that the mind control could/would be abused and used for other things, but that's different.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Just curious; is this purely an academic, philosophical discussion, or is someone advocating for change? Is there a faction here that wants all mind-effecting spells to be labeled explicitly as "evil"? What do you want to see in a future edition/revision/printing of the core rules that reflects your personal philosophical outlook vis a vis the nature of good and evil? People have struggled with these questions for literally the span of human history, after all. Do you need the game to reflect your opinion, or is it just fun to talk about?

 

[Maxperson]

what if they stopped you from making the eggs because you have high cholesterol and made you make something healthier for you?

Am I murdering or raping someone?

What if they stopped you from smoking when you wanted to keep smoking?

Am I murdering or raping someone?

What if they made you choose a diffrent TV show becuse the one you choose is a bad one?

Good God, man. Nobody has argued that there aren't evil uses for mind control.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. I said your argument (ends justify means) can be used to justify almost anything.

It doesn't, though. That's you twisting my argument.

Killing (bad) can be good if done for good reason...

But murder cannot. Rape cannot.

I didn't ask about harm (and even in that case the family of the person you eat may be effected)

Harm to others was the what I said made cannibalism evil in the other thread.

 

[HammerMan]

They made the choice and were allowed to make it. They were just stopped from enacting that choice.

and where did I suggest not stopping them?

And I find the talk that we have to allow someone to be murdered rather than using mind control to save them to be far more evil than mind control to stop them.

again where did I say not to stop them?

Wow. Probably a good thing that literally nobody has said that this would be okay, then.

excpet it is your argument at a larger scale (as long as it ends good it doesn't matter what you do)

If you have to resort to twisting words into Strawmen, perhaps you should re-examine your position. This is the second time this morning that you've done that to me.

excuse me, but you in this very reply said I said to not stop a murder... and not only did I not say that but I have never disagreed the end point (murder stopped) wasn't a good end... it is the means I am talking about not the ends.

If rather than him ruling the world he was simply stopping acts of murder and rape(I love how you added theft in there) and then releaseing those minds, then yes those would be good acts.

but what if ruleing the world was the means to stop them (yes i added theft, is that a problem?) as long as his ends "stop bad thing" is good then his means "take over world" is too... just like "stop killer" is good (I think we all agree) but mind control is bad (we do not agree here) makes it Okay and justfies it.

replace mind control with kill
replace mind control with beat to a bloody pulp
replace mind control with beat up bad
replace mind control with beat up
replace mind control with punch in throat
replace mind control with punch in nose
replace mind control with takle and take away weapon
replace mind control with talk down

is talking someone out of murder the exact same as killing someone to stop the murder? both stop the murder. Do the means matter?

You overestimate how many are going to be opposed to mind control in these highly limited circumstances.

I doubt it... because the question "is mind control bad" is separate from "can bad things be used for good ends"
maybe if you phrase it right you can get them to agree with you, but when you seperate the means from the ends I am very sure of most people agreeing...

Now, you'll get a lot of people who would be concerned that the mind control could/would be abused and used for other things, but that's different.

no it isn't. Mind control is a violation of the deepest order.

 

[HammerMan]

Am I murdering or raping someone?

so the only time mind control is okay in the most dire of needs?

Am I murdering or raping someone?

see above

Good God, man. Nobody has argued that there aren't evil uses for mind control.

okay, so other then to save a life or to stop a rape (I find it funny that you think physical violation worse then mental violation but will consead only one is reel so that makes it worse to us)

It doesn't, though. That's you twisting my argument.

okay, so then what is your argument?

But murder cannot. Rape cannot.

so if Dexter murders a serial killer to stop that serial killer is that a good murder? I guess we could go with the batman joke "If you kill a killer the number of killers stays the same" "Yeah but if I kill ten killers it goes down by 9"

Harm to others was the what I said made cannibalism evil in the other thread.

Okay, so you do not believe cannibalism is always evil, so that is not a help on our point of disagreement.