Cheating Death

[Munin]

Lord Death*, that is...

[This post contains a minor spoiler concerning the Grey Citadel module]


An interesting situation has recently developed in my game. Over the past few sessions, the party has been getting attached to a certain tavern girl named Molly. After a hard day, the group got used to seeing her cheerful face at the tavern. (baiting the hook)

Last session, the party was attacked at the inn by a group of assassins. After valiantly defeating the killers, the party discovered Molly, lying in a pool of her own blood, her throat slit.

At this point Fitch, the dwarven owner of the Tavern, who has not uttered so much as a single word to the party, approaches the paladin of the group with a tear in his eye.
You see, Molly was the daughter he never had, and losing her is simply too much to bear. He appeals to the Paladin, who is also a dwarf, to approach the city temple and ask the cleric to bring Molly back to the world of the living.

The Paladin, caught in the emotion of the moment, agrees. (setting the hook)

Now comes the fun part. Lord Death will give Molly to the Paladin. However, if a soul is taken, a soul much be given. A soul of Lord Death's choosing.
The soul could be anyone, a party member, Fitch, or any other NPC. Lord Death has no concern for good or evil.

The wise thing for the paladin to do would be to refuse the offer and let Molly go on to the afterlife. But I have a feeling he won't.

If he gives his word and reneges, he comes under the curse of Lord Death, and at least temporarily looses his paladinhood for being an oath-breaker.

If he keeps his word, he will have to kill a good npc. That will definitely cost him his paladinhood. (reeling him in)

Man, I'm an evil gm.

So, here are my questions:
What curse would Lord Death bestow upon the paladin for breaking his oath?

What soul would Lord Death ask for?


*IMC...the 'raise dead' spell line does not automatically bring one back to life. Instead it grants an audience with Lord Death, whose job it is to ferry souls from this life to the next.
The person must then barter with Lord Death for the soul of the deceased. Since Lord Death cannot be tempted with carnal possessions, most often one must perform some service for Lord Death in exchange for the soul. Failing to come through with one's end of the bargain is known as 'cheating Death'.

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

You say that Lord Death doesn't care if the soul is good or evil, yet you seem to say that the paladin will have to kill a good person to replace Molly. Which is it (or am I completely confused)?

Doesn't the church know that this is the way things go on in the afterlife? The clerics could at least warn the paladin what's about to befall on him.

And if the paladin learns about the "deal" that he has to conclude with Lord Death, couldn't he just "Hello Lord Death, please bring Molly back to life, she was taken too soon. In exchange, I will go out and send you 10 souls to replace hers (ie vengeance on the assassins and their organization). You can trust me, I'm a paladin, you know..."

TS

 

[Munin]

You say that Lord Death doesn't care if the soul is good or evil, yet you seem to say that the paladin will have to kill a good person to replace Molly. Which is it (or am I completely confused)?

Lord Death could ask for an evil soul, but what is the fun of that? Even if it is an evil person, a paladin still can't kill him just because he's evil.

The soul Lord Death chooses will be one who has escaped his fate in some way. Someone who lived when he should have died. Lord Death carries no grudges, and has no ambitions. He sometimes asks for other favors, some of them quite odd, but he does not give reasons.

You are correct about the temple. They are aware of Lord Death, though they have no way of knowing what he will ask of the paladin. He will be given fair warning by the temple, and he doesn't have to agree to the deal after he hears it. The choice is his.
The catch is that he does not get to choose the soul, Lord Death does.

 

[Volaran]

At first glance, I thought this was a mean thing to do to a PC. But, it doesn't seem to be quite the no win scenario that I thought I'd glanced.

The good NPC could be any number of types who'd come to Lord Death's attention. Possibly a good lich (in the vein of an FR archlich) or maybe someone who 'cheated death' in the past.

It could be an interesting RP experience for the paladin's player. Say it was the good lich example. Such an immortal could have thwarted Death for long term good purposes, and said paladin could cause him to call into question what his goals were truely worth, when his long delayed natural death could save an innocent's life. The paladin might even barter to take the goal as his own to secure the bargain.

As to a curse? If it came down to breaking an oath, or killing a good soul, and the paladin would be going against his code either way...the penalties should be of varying degree.

Death may not care for good or evil, but if he understands oaths, he should understand a character keeping a code of behaviour. Perhaps require the paladin dispatch one who 'cheated Death', but more suited to being the prey of a holy warrior. If the paladin did this, he could be released from his initial oath, but the girl would still remain dead. If Death wished to place additional restrictions, perhaps he might require the paladin do so without any of his granted powers.

If the paladin kills a good soul, it would likely be his god handing down the punishment, and a severe one at that. Some kind of multi-session quest and an atonement at the very least.

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

The catch is that he does not get to choose the soul, Lord Death does.

Don't want to be mean or anything, but the setting of the adventure really looks like you want to screw the Paladin over. This could lead to interesting gameplay, but overall, the Paladin will probably (judging by what you're saying) suffer for trying to help two good people.

Maybe I'd be bad sport, but if my DM would pull the "damned if you do, damned if you don't trick on me", I'd probably simply sacrifice the Paladin ("I exchange my soul for this noble girl's soul") and roll-up a chaotic neutral character next time and be done with moral dilemmas. Call me Sour Grape.

I'm probably reacting much to violently to the situation you're proposing. Perhaps something similar happened to me in a former life and I haven't come completely to terms with. Oh well.

You can be a bastard GM and ask for the soul of another party member.

You can be a normal GM and ask for the soul of the chief of the assassins ("He who has taken too many lives must now pay with his"). I'm not sure of how things work in your campaign, but I assume that the PC's would have to capture said assassin and bring him to the church.

Other than that, I don't know what to propose you.

Good luck!

TS

 

[Mark Chance]

Dude, like what the paladin's gotta do is wait 'til Death ain't lookin. Like, maybe Death is crushin on a hot babe, and then BAMMO!, the paladin like Melvins him.

Works every time, dude.

 

[Munin]

Maybe I'd be bad sport, but if my DM would pull the "damned if you do, damned if you don't trick on me", I'd probably simply sacrifice the Paladin ("I exchange my soul for this noble girl's soul") and roll-up a chaotic neutral character next time and be done with moral dilemmas. Call me Sour Grape.

He could do that, except for the fact that it would not satisfy the oath unless Death choose the paladin. In which case he'd find himself in a much worse situation than he started in if he offed himself. Who do you think would be responsible for carting his sorry self to the next life? That's right, Lord Death.

I'm really not trying to *screw* the paladin. But when you play that class you accept that you will face certain decisions.
I try to emulate life. Sometimes, to right a wrong, you have to commit a wrong yourself. Sometimes there simply is no correct answer. Things are rarely black and white.

Remember, the paladin can wash his hands of this at any time. It will be his choice to accept Death's offer.

TS, you probably wouldn't like my DMing style very much. Moral Dilemmas are something of a sick pleasure of mine. For every action there is a consequence.

I'm not twisted enough to make the soul another member of the party...now if I were running CoC...

I'm leaning towards making the soul the dwarf who made the original request for help. But I also like the idea of someone who, like a lich, has unnaturally prolonged his life. Very interesting stuff.

 

[Zogg]

I don't think the scenario is mean per se.....I just have a problem with your preparing a curse for the paladin when he hasn't even done anything wrong yet. What if he sacrifices an evil person, or a cat, or even goes back to the tavern and finds someone willing to give up their own life? I mean, allow him some options.

He should be innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

 

[Felix]

I'm going to agree with the Smokeblower. Were you the cops, this would fall under Entrapment. It would do so because:

- The pally promised Fitch to bring Molly back to life. He must do this or have broken a promise: loses his paladinhood.

- The pally, in order to fulfill his promise must satisify LD's reqirement (and it sounds like the paladin would have to agree to the soul exchange before he finds out who he needs to kill, which would be capital "L" Lame). If he doesn't kill the target, he breaks an oath: he loses his paladinhood.

- The pally must kill a good person (because how interesting would it be for him to reap the soul of an evil person, says you). He kills the good person: he loses his paladinhood.

So, because he acted in charity and goodwill (like a paladin should) you are giving him this scenario? This is not a moral dilemma; it's dumping on the paladin's player because he chose to play a paladin. Just cut to the chase and take away his paladinhood why doncha?

What sould would LD ask for? To make this any kind of reasonable quest, he asks for the assassins, or the boss of the assassins. Maybe he's undead, or something. Let the paladin do something heroic.

 

[AuraSeer]

I'm really not trying to *screw* the paladin.

Perhaps you aren't doing it on purpose, but have you considered it from the player's perspective? You're giving him only four choices, any of which could potentially cost his paladinhood.

1) He could refuse Fitch's request. That would be failing to help those in need, which is against the code of conduct.

2) He could accept Fitch's request, find out what is required of him, and then decide not to talk to Death. That would mean going back on his word to Fitch, which is not honorable.

3) He could go through with Death's mission, and end up killing an innocent. That's a clear no-no.

4) He could agree to Death's terms, and then change his mind on learning the target. Not only would this involve breaking an oath, it would get him stuck with a curse to boot.

Even if you're not purposely working to screw the paladin, you've managed to do it pretty well. From the PC's point of view, he is stuck in a box with no way out. Any choice he makes will turn him into a lowly fighter, only without the bonus feats. This is the worst kind of railroading, and if I were running the paladin I wouldn't stand for it.