Chess is not an RPG: The Illusion of Game Balance

Celebrim

Legend
That passage just irked me.

Just one? I could write a book length response to all the things that irked me about that essay. I've seldom seen such a dense field of flame bait.

I can roleplay a social character, but only so far. It's not my skill as a roleplayer that's lacking, but my social skills in general. Hey, unsurprisingly, I'm a nerd. I also not entirely neurotypical and have some problems with social cues. I find being around people tiring. Exhausting. I can't always be social, I can't always give my A-game. And it's nice for the mechanics to be able to help me out when I'm just not able.

While I don't agree with you that social and physical skills within a game can ever be handled in the same way, because the mind of the player is present in the shared imaginary space in a way his body is not, I otherwise sympathize with what you are saying here.

The compromise that has always worked for me is to insist that the player provide the content of his social propositions in character, but to judge the response to that content based on a combination of the fictional positioning and the social game mechanics.

So, you stutter out whatever you say, and once I get the gist of it and have enough of an idea how the NPC would respond to your content, then I'll judge what sort of social interaction you are making - deception, reasoning, intimidation, etc. - and ask for an appropriate skill check. The difficulty of the skill check will be slightly modified by the context and suitability of the content. For example, a man who cares for his children will have the check modified if your content refers to his relationship with his children, and the outcome of the proposition whether success or failure will depend on the combination of your content and the NPC's character.

If your character tends to have high social skills, however awkward your personal social skills are, in game there will be a tendency for people to like, respect, and perhaps fear your character. Your stuttering, stammering, blushing, long windedness, shyness, and so forth doesn't get translated into the shared imaginary world unless it is suitable to the character. Conversely, no matter how charismatic you may be personally, if your character lacks the same traits, then everything you say in character will tend to be seen in the worst possible light in the shared imaginary space.

And this happens precisely because that's what the rules say will happen. Now, it still can be that you'll fail repeatedly in social scenarios because you deliver IC all sorts of inappropriate content - japes when its not suited, threats that are ill-advised, lies when the truth would serve you better, and so forth. But that's the same as choosing to open the wrong doors or failing to adopt the right tactics in a battle. And, regardless, the rules will tend to mitigate your bad decisions in the same way that a fighter of extraordinary ability doesn't need to be quite as much of a tactician.

However, I always insist on making a person speak IC, both because it makes for a more enjoyable game, and because I find that its good practice and tends to increase the player's 'skill points'.
 

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Emirikol

Adventurer
I prefer a game that is 50/50 roleplaying / boardgame. So sue me.
If I wanted to sit around and tell stories 100%, I'd go hang out at the old folks' home.

John is shortsighted in that he implies that it is badwrongfun to mix the two. Games and game sessions are more than one thing to each player. I'd say a percentage of each.

Here's my primary game group from a rough estimation of how much they like to use a game to Roleplay or Boardgame during any given session:
Me: 60 roleplayer/40game-balance-monkey
B: 25 rpg/75 boardgamer
J: 40/60
S: 80/20
R: 35/65

Another thought on this matter:
I remember when I was part of a elitist group of people who thought that people who didn't play my way were P.O.S's. I still have a twinge of that when I go to a game store and a fellow gamer proceeds to explain to me how to break the pathfinder rules to make some really statistically amazing character..so, I still knee jerk ask, "so what makes him interesting or better outside of his statistics?" I always get that horrified look like I was not part of the pod-people (reference to Invasion of the Body Snatchers movie).

..then I relax a little and recall that this person standing in front of me has the potential to be a friend and that I don't need to crap all over his fun. I've learned to say what a neat idea that is that he thought it out like that and ask what kind of world he likes to play in and if he likes any other games.

I've had a lot more fun meeting people when I hear what kind of game they like to play. I might not invite them to any of my groups, but I don't feel the need to be some kind of elitist a-hole either by telling them they're not a REAL roleplayer b/c they might like to start with the stats first.

I commend the author on his article. It gets people talking and he admits that he is in the 'in progress' of his definitions.

Best gaming to the author and to you all!

Jay H



....
 

mouselim

First Post
Essentially, I agree that RP definitely doesn't equate balancing the game. In fact, I felt that the designers need to balance the game stems from the need to play the game as a...game (computer, console, MMO, board gaming, etc other than pen-and-paper RP) without the RP.

That's why I'm sad that 4e when into that direction. When I was blasting 4e five years ago, I took a lot (and I meant a lot) of heat and hate...guess what happened five years later? Yet, it is happening again in 5e (to a lesser degree). Again, the designers try to balance, try to give better resources (healing system like Diablo?!) and better hits (even a goblin has a +4 hit?!) and limitless cantrip spells at-will that increases in power with levels?! Sad...they never learn and again, I'm taking heat and hate from my honest viewpoints again. Folks are saying there aren't that much noise in 5e as before but guess what? It's because most who left during 4e episode haven't return or didn't bother to venture into D&D again.

However, to Mr Wicks, game rules are there for a reason too. A rule that doesn't contribute to RP doesn't mean that it is not required. It's not about balancing or nitpicking on details but it is to create a structure.

Take a classic example of weapon speed.

Riddick takes a cup to attack an opponent wielding a massive axe. Well, firstly he doesn't have a weapon on hand. Secondly, he is a very skilled warrior (assume he has a +10 to hit with a strength bonus of +3) but he doesn't have a proper weapon on hand. Thirdly, he knows that he will not survive one hit from that axe and he needs speed to critically take down his opponent.

The player turns to his DM and said, "Ok, what's the weapon speed of the cup?"

DM replied, "Well, I'll give it a one."

Both DM and player rolls initiative and gets the same result after Dexterity modifiers.

Player smiled happily. "Great! Good choice that Riddick uses the cup and the weapon speed makes the difference. Riddick has two attacks per round. I'm going to smash the cup on his face, targeting his eye so that I partially blind him. What's my to-hit?"

DM thought for a moment before replying. "Ok, interesting situation. Since Riddick is trying to target a specific part of the body and a small target at that, I'll take the rules penalty to attack a tiny creature. Riddick will suffer a -4 to hit." -- I cannot remember what's the penalty but let's assume it.

Player is excited and replied, "Cool. I'll roll with a +8 bonus after taking into consideration the penalty."

Player rolls and scores a hit.

"Aha!" The player proclaims excitedly. "What's the expected damage from the cup? Did the cup cuts his eye? Is he blinded in one eye?"

The DM holds up his hand to stall the onslaught of questions.

"Hold, wait a minute. Ok, cup will deal 1d2 damage with strength bonus. Yes, the giant's eye is cut but he is not blinded but since blood is oozing from his wound, he is partially impaired in his vision till he clears it."

Player takes a D4 and rolls and gets a 2. Adding his strength, he deals 5 damage to the giant.

"Ok, for the second attack, Riddick will hold on to one of the piece and attempt to slash the shrapnel across the giant's throat, hopefully killing it."

DM mused and replied. "Ok, that sharp piece from the ceramic cup will be like a dagger. It will deal 1D4 damage. Apply the same penalty since Riddick is targeting a specific area of the giant's body. I'll add an additional +3 damage if Riddick hits."

The player rolls and scores a hit. He rolls on the D4 and scores a 4 for a total of 10 damage, slaying the giant even before the giant can react.

In essence, the rules frame the structure, it doesn't defeat role-playing. However, if the rules are used different to create a different experience of play, then it takes role-playing out or diminishes it as players are veered towards playing the game differently.
 

Mishihari Lord

First Post
So I just read read the article and the biggest problem with it is that Wick is making two major points and arguing them as if they're the same thing. Point A is mechanics shouldn't matter in an RPG. I strongly disagree - system matters. Point B is that balance is unimportant - and I agree with this one. While Point A does indeed imply Point B, the converse is not true, and he makes a mess of the arguments by lumping the two together.
 

mouselim

First Post
So I just read read the article and the biggest problem with it is that Wick is making two major points and arguing them as if they're the same thing. Point A is mechanics shouldn't matter in an RPG. I strongly disagree - system matters. Point B is that balance is unimportant - and I agree with this one. While Point A does indeed imply Point B, the converse is not true, and he makes a mess of the arguments by lumping the two together.

Damn! How you manage to say what I want but in much lesser sentences!!!!! :)
 


pemerton

Legend
Why did Riddick use a tea cup? The answer is more on the meta-level than anything else. Riddick uses a tea cup to show the audience that Riddick can kill people with a tea cup. And here we see where the example starts falling apart. Riddick has no free will. He's an animaton of the author. Additionally, Riddick can't actually lose. The outcome is preordained because the story teller has decided what the outcome is supposed to be. Riddick is supposed to win easily. Riddick in fact is risking nothing by using a tea cup.
An RPG character doesn't have free will either, as one of many consequences of being a purely imaginary being.

The player of an RPG character has free will, but then so did the author of the Riddick movie.

In an RPG in which the player of "Riddick" fights with a cup, victory may not be pre-ordained. But it's not hard to design and run an RPG such that the player, using his/her free will, has a reason to fight with a cup rather than a sword. In a game session I ran a few week ago (using Burning Wheel, which does have a weapon table including speed and vs armour), there was one combat, between the only warrior PC and a scimitar-armed thug. The warrior, an elf, didn't draw his sword. He used his brawling to grab the NPC by the wrist and throw him to the ground. (In Burning Wheel, that combat can be resolved as a pair of opposed checks, attack dice vs defence dice for the two combatants.)

This was because the elf warrior (and the player playing him) wanted to prove a point about the cutural superiority of elves to thuggish humans. I could easily imagine a Riddick variant of that, in which the warrior wants to prove a point about his abiity to beat of thugs with nothing but a metal cup.

A game without a weapon table makes a tea cup the equal of a bazooka - all the time and not just in those establishing scenes.
This isn't true. Off the top off my head I can think of four RPGs without weapons tables: Marvel Heroic RP, Fate, HeroQuest revised, and Maelstrom Storytelling. In none of them is a tea cup the equal of a bazooka - for instance, a character wieding a tea cup can't make the same action declarations that a character wielding a bazooka because only delivers explosives at range.

A rule that doesn't contribute to RP doesn't mean that it is not required. It's not about balancing or nitpicking on details but it is to create a structure.

<snip example of 2nd ed AD&D-style "called shot">

In essence, the rules frame the structure, it doesn't defeat role-playing.
The sort of rules structure you describe is 100% not required for an RPG.

For instance, your example assumes that combat in the game involves initiative, affected by weapon speed and DEX scores. Which also assumes that PCs have ability scores such as DEX. You also make assumptions about action economy, consequence generation and imposition, etc.

None of that is true for the 4 RPGs I mentioned above. Characters are defined by descriptors (completey free descriptors for 2 of them, a mix of free and semi-free descriptors for MHRP, a mix of free descriptors and skill ranks for Fate).

Even Burning Wheel, which involves a weapons table with speed and vs armour, can be played without it. If the table doesn't want to bother differentiating in any detail between daggers and polearms, they're not obliged to. Situations where one weapon would be particularly advantageous or disadvantageous can easiy be handled via ad hoc modifiers (eg if the dagger wielder is charging the polearm wielder, the polearm wielder gets a bonus die; if the dagger wield is shaking the hand of the polearm wielder when the fight breaks out, then the dagger wielder gets a bonus die).

Incorporating weapons speed, DEX stats, vs armour, etc into combat resolution is a choice in design. Not a requirement.
 

Celebrim

Legend
An RPG character doesn't have free will either, as one of many consequences of being a purely imaginary being.

I mean that a PC differs from a character in a novel or movie by having a will independent from that of the story teller. The story teller of a movie can have all his characters do whatever he likes. But Riddick's counterpart - as the protagonist - in an RPG is a player character controlled by a story collaborator and thus has independent will in a way that the movie version of Riddick does not.

In an RPG in which the player of "Riddick" fights with a cup, victory may not be pre-ordained. But it's not hard to design and run an RPG such that the player, using his/her free will, has a reason to fight with a cup rather than a sword.

I did not say it wasn't.

This was because the elf warrior (and the player playing him) wanted to prove a point about the cutural superiority of elves to thuggish humans. I could easily imagine a Riddick variant of that, in which the warrior wants to prove a point about his abiity to beat of thugs with nothing but a metal cup.

Sure, in which case, the mechanical inferiority of the cup in the setting helps make that point.

This isn't true. Off the top off my head I can think of four RPGs without weapons tables: Marvel Heroic RP, Fate, HeroQuest revised, and Maelstrom Storytelling. In none of them is a tea cup the equal of a bazooka - for instance, a character wieding a tea cup can't make the same action declarations that a character wielding a bazooka because only delivers explosives at range.

There are a couple of ways you evade the point in saying this. I'm not familiar with all of those systems, but in general they depend on a social contract to assign value to weapons only if it is reasonable to agree that they are assets within the setting. Thus, if you were trying to run a non-comic game, but one with a certain seriousness, you'd not have a die or trait assigned to the possession of an object which lacked utility as a weapon and in general the story teller would rule by fiat that that trait generally didn't apply to declarations of intent to do damage. Certainly within those systems you could declare things like 'Beware my Rubber Chicken' gave some advantage in combat equivalent to "I love my trusty shotgun ole Bessy." but the point is in practice players know not to do that and game masters don't respect attempts to violate the setting guidelines. Thus, holding a bazooka in Cortex Plus might generate an extra asset die in a way that holding a rubber chicken would not, or having a sword might create some advantage in a fight that holding a limp wet noodle or a bundle of clover didn't.

However, in such systems you are highly reliant on the game masters to respect and interpret the mechanics in light of the setting supposedly being emulated as the rules themselves aren't actually doing the job of genera emulation.

For example, you declare, "Only the bazooka delivers explosives at range." But this is problematic on several levels. First, if I can declare I punch and kill someone with my old tin cup, then I can certainly declare that I use my old tin cup as a lethal throwing weapon to crush the target's head or smash a building. Without mechanics that say, "Bazookas deliver destructive damage better than thrown tin cups", which the rules in fact do not say, you are leaving it up to fiat for the GM to say, "No." Secondly, Bazooka's are not anti-personal weapons. They in fact deliver explosives in the form of a shaped charge, which is just about basically harmless to anything it doesn't actually directly hit. The blast radius of a 3.5 inch bazooka in most game terms and certainly in abstract systems is negligible enough to be nonexistent. So now, without a weapons list, you are requiring the GM to not only know the properties of bazookas, but for the players to foreknow how the DM will rule on those properties. Will the bazooka behave realistically, or will it behave like a Hollywood special effects explosion with about 80 gallons of gasoline poured down to create a huge fireball around the point of the blast? And in any event, if it behaves realistically and is effectively a single target weapon, what makes such an item particularly more effective than a thrown tin cup except GM fiat? After all, in a system that depends on descriptors and makes the effectiveness of attacks depend according to the rules solely on the descriptors of the person making the attack, thrown tin cups are pretty much the same as shaped charge bazookas until the GM throws his hands up and says, "Look. You are breaking the social contract here. We are supposed to be making a certain sort of story, and you are abusing the game mechanics."

Which again shows that such systems are far more than the rules written on the paper once they go into play, but instead contain a vast number of unknown, unwritten, and at times unknowable house rules such as, "Bazookas have a blast radius and so you can propose effecting multiple targets in the blast.", or "Attacks do damage only if they use a weapon the GM deems can reasonably do lethal damage to the target." - which means that thumbs and tin cups might be out depending on the GM, effectively having been granted a damage modifier of 0.

Ad hoc rules are still rules and they are for being ad hoc no less complicated than formally stated ones. If your answer is, "Well yes, but in those systems you are expected to make up ad hoc rules to handle weapons.", then you've conceded the point that the particular characteristics of a weapon can and often do enhance your goal of creating a good story. Writing them down so that everyone is in agreement about what they are and has reasonable expectations about game physics isn't bad for a game, particularly one in which combat and weapon play will occur regularly in the story.

Incorporating weapons speed, DEX stats, vs armour, etc into combat resolution is a choice in design. Not a requirement.

Sure. I absolutely agree with that. But that comes a long way from Wicks point. Wick argues that incorporating such things into a design is a choice to create a game that isn't a role playing game, but a complicated board game.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Interesting. In his reply, John Wick confirms that he did, indeed, mean to say that D&D is not a roleplaying game: "D&D was designed to be a table top tactics simulation game. If you can successfully play the game *without* roleplaying, it can't be a roleplaying game." But he then later says "D&D is a roleplaying game. It has rules for players choosing roles, exploring an environment with a game master who has the task of playing the antagonist to their goals." So I'm not clear on his position.

As others have noted, in being self-contradictory, he kind of suggests that he is not sure of his own position.

Some of his point, I can understand - to a significant degree, spotlight is what often matters most. However, he fails to note that, for some, the real path to spotlight is through mechanical challenge, such that balance matters a great deal to them.

All in all, his basic error is in an attempt to be proscriptive. Whatever attempt he's making to help players find fun is sullied by his attempt to draw lines between Us and Them, between Roleplayers and not-Roleplayers. In so doing, he will, of course, cut some people into the Them category, and cheese them off. He will do little to help them find fun. So, bad job, there.

You know what matters less than balance in a roleplaying game? RPG design theory. Theory is a means to a practical end. It does not have meaning except in terms of its power to bring about a practical end my players and I enjoy. Calling D&D an RPG, or not, has *NO RELEVANCE* to that end. So stop worrying about it.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
Everyone calling John Wick "the author" suggests to me that a number of posters don't realize that he's actually an accomplished game designer, albeit definitely closer to the rules-lite, story-game end of the spectrum.

Oh, you mean the end of the spectrum that isn't roleplaying games!

Well, that explains everything.

:)
 

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