Chiming in on the D&D minis (merged with "anyone buying the new Mini's?")

Azlan said:
The miniatures line itself is *good* idea; it's the random packaging of them (and the marketing that is behind that) that is, IMHO, a bad idea. (But, of course, what's "good" and "bad" here is subjective.)
The fact that the miniatures are so cheap combined with the large range allows me to excuse the random packaging.

For me, these miniatures are four times as cheap as Reaper and Chainmail. Even if only half of them are useful, I'm still in front. Given that I'm a DM who wants a range of different monster miniatures, at the moment most of them are useful.

I am really looking forward to the Dragonseye set which will give large dragon figures. (That's in the D&D sense - so 40mm base).

Cheers!
 

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MerricB said:
And we should trust you more? Damn well produce some PROOF for your allegations.

Allegations? They were more like speculations. What I said was (I quote): Hmm... I wonder what kind of cost-efficient labor WotC has, doing the mass-production paint jobs on these miniatures? Let me guess: the same kind of foreign "sweatshop" labor that Nike uses to mass-produce its shoes.

Perhaps I was being overly cynical with that remark. Yet that remark was meant to be indicative of the kind of corporate thinking and the cold machinations that go on behind the scenes at these mega companies. And, given what I know of WotC's track record, I wouldn't put what I speculated past them.

Anyway, I'm not expecting or even asking anyone here to trust me. But, then, I don't have millions of dollars riding on whether or not you put your trust in my words or my product.

But, hey, these miniatures are just toys, right? I probably am overreacting here...

;)

Bottom line: I, for one, am not buying ANY of the D&D minis -- and I've made it clear my reasons why.
 
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MerricB said:
I just don't want to spend $10,000 on the miniatures. I don't have that much money!

...said the guy who's been playing Magic for 9.5 years.

And ease up on the hyperbole a little - $10,000 would buy you several profesionally painted Warhammer armies.

You can get a very comprehensive set of fantasy minis suitable for D&D for about as much as some of the people in this thread have already spent on these plastics (without even getting a complete set, and getting many identical commons they'll never have a use for). And for most of them, you'll definitely pay less than the $7-10 the rares are going for on E-bay.
 
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mmu1 said:
...said the guy who's been playing Magic for 9.5 years.
:)

Rule One of playing ANY game: Don't spend more money than you can afford.

Miniature games seem to me FAR more expensive than Magic. The trick with most games is to remember that you don't need EVERYTHING!

Cheers!
 

Azlan said:
Allegations? They were more like speculations.
Actually, I think the word you were looking for was "insinuations", that is to say a "artfully indirect, often derogatory suggestion", as Webster would say.

Some folks are always willing to imagine WotC as a great arbiter of some horrible master plan to rule the world and rob poor, innocent gamers of their meager funds (you know, the meager funds they absolutely must spend on a game, rather than on food or shelter). As often as not, whenever WotC does something questionable, it's almost universally discovered later to be attributed to just plain stupidity or shortsightedness. Remember how many problems occured with first four or five M:tG expansions? I do. I remember the A & B distribution problems of Legends, for example. A plot? No, just stupidity.


Azlan said:
Anyway, I'm not expecting or even asking anyone here to trust me. But, then, I don't have millions of dollars riding on whether or not you put your trust in my words or my product.
See, this isn't 'speculation', this is 'insinuation'. This is basically implying that WotC is lying. Unless you're trying to say that WotC has more on the line, and less reason to lie...but I'll speculate that you're not saying that.

The D&D minis are inexpensive, durable and useful, regardless of whether you use the skirmish game or not. The idea that the average DM is going to alter his adventures due to a lack of an exact mini is ludicrous. Do you honestly believe that the DM will never use a monster smaller than a halfling or bigger than 'large', simply because he's lacking the proper mini? Do you mean to tell me that you think he'll only ever use minotaurs or umber hulks, instead of a Yuan-ti abomination, because he doesn't have an exact mini? That sounds like nonsense and hyperbole, to me.

Azlan said:
So, when I first saw the mass-produced line of plastic miniatures that WotC is producing to coincide with the release of 3.5 D&D, I thought, "Nice. An inexpensive line of miniatures that most everyone can afford to get." But that was before I became aware of the randomness and the "collectability" of the packaging, i.e. the ol' MtG marketing gimmick that has enabled the investors of WotC to become *obscenely* rich.
Actually, I'd say the fact that M:tG is a really good game had a lot more to do with making them comfortably wealthy than it's format. If it were just the format, then the dozens of imitators that followed wouldn't have faltered. But the fact of the matter is that most of them were either followers, copycats or just plain bad games. Did the collecatbility make it a runaway success? It sure did. What I missed is the part where you explained why it was a bad thing. Or, for that matter, why a dozen-odd folks at WotC getting to be millionaires (which, btw, is not 'obscenely' rich, by any measure) was reprehensible. Sports cards have been making money for a long time on the same concept...the only difference is that here, you got a cool game to play. When I stopped playing magic and collecting it, it was due a personal choice, not because I thought they'd corrupted the perceived purity of the game.

The D&D minis are even available in non-random packs, if you so desire. Since they're not going to be as dependent on a game, the collector's market won't be nearly as competitive. Some folks will want to, in the Pokemon parlance, "get 'em all." Others, like me, will just enjoy having and using them for their D&D game, and possibly use them for skirmishing. But some of us LIKE the idea of not knowing what's in the booster. There's a certain thrill in opening it and getting the Minotaur or Tiefling Captain, when you weren't certain what you'd get.

Wotc is guilty of lots of things worth griping about...but mindless, heartless greed isn't one of them, IME. Wanting to run a company profitably...that's another story entirely. Some of us would consider keeping D&D in operation a virtue, not a vice. YMMV.
 


MerricB said:
You guess wrong.

Rob Heinsoo said: "As I understand the production process, our Chinese vendor was chosen partially on the basis that they could certify that their factories were child-labor free and otherwise responsible, something that the competitors couldn't fully manage.

"We've been very very lucky to have signed on with the vendor we did. Most every phase of the production process has been a pleasant success instead of the teething disasters that could have occurred. "

That is well and good and I believe them when they say there is no child labor but that still doesn't answer the question about the workers condition and pay. What does otherwise responsible mean? Do they employ prison labor like many Chinese factories? Do they pay a reasonable wage? What is thier wage? Is it based on piece work? How many hours a week do they work? What are the factory conditions like? The reason so many factory jobs have moved overseas is that they can get away with paying poverty wages in unsafe conditions, child labor is just one of the many horendous practices. Until I get more answers I will remain leary about the conditions that produce these cheap miniatures.

As for being lucky with the vendor they signed on with, that just means that there were no production snafus and the products were delivered as they ordered and on time without having problems come up.
 

I just noted that rpgshop.com has them on sale for the same price. Me, I might get mine from Amazon this weekend if I get the urge to part with my money.

EDIT - Darn it, the sale ended sometime within the past two days! They were offering them for 13.99 and 6.99, respectively.

EDIT2 - Anyone interested in buying in bulk, look here: http://www.iconusa3.com/online/D&D_Harb-Expansion-pk.htm
 
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Azlan said:
Feh. To me, this smacks of Dickensian commercialism and runaway consumerism.

In the starter boxes: 16 randomized miniatures (1 rare, 5 uncommon, and 10 common). What's this... ?! The same kind of marketing gimmick that WotC used with that money raking game, Magic: the Gathering... ?! And with the emphasis in 3.5 D&D geared so heavily on the use of miniatures... ?!

:eek:

So, does that mean buyers are going to end up owning dozens and dozens of miniatures that they don't want, while still clamoring for the ones that they don't have? Will DMs be inclined to start designing their adventures around the miniatures that they've been lucky (or spendthrift) enough to acquire? ("Gee, I'd really like to put a manticore in this adventure, but I don't yet have one of those. Maybe I'll go buy a couple more expansion packs, and this time I'll get lucky. Or maybe I can find one for sale for $7-10 on e-bay.")

:rolleyes:

Hmm... I wonder what kind of cost-efficient labor WotC has, doing the mass-production paint jobs on these miniatures? Let me guess: the same kind of foreign "sweatshop" labor that Nike uses to mass-produce its shoes.

Sorry, guys. I *love* role-playing games, including D&D. But I absolutely *hate* the reality that is behind this line of miniatures from WotC.

IMHO, MtG was one of the most innovative, elegant, and enjoyable games ever created, but WotC's steely-hearted greed and the glut of cards and expansions they put out for MtG ruined it for all time, for most everyone. Nowadays, I can't find anyone to play it; not so much because players got burnt out on it, but because they were persuaded and inundated into spending so much money on it, only to have the game become a bloated, overly-complicated, unbalanced mess.


Sorry Azlan, but I have to disagre with you on a couple of points.
1> I'm certainly not interested in collecting them. My reasons for being interested is for cheap, pre-painted representations of critters for D&D use. I don't need them, but it is nice to have the option.

2> Arguing that someone will only design scenarios around what mini's they have makes a better arguement FOR buying them than not buying them.

Typically we all use tokens, or dice, or coins, or something else to represent whatever the PCs are up against anyway so using the lack of a Manticore figure for not using one in a game is not a solid arguement against these mini's. "Gee, all I've got is this bag of plastic army men so again this week the party will encounter another time rift and fight another platoon of modern soldiers. Gosh I wish I had some Orc figures. Until I get some I can't use them in my game." If most people thought that way then D&D wouldn't still be around. During the majority of my years of gaming mini's were a rarely used luxury. Now there's someone making them cheap in quantity.
 

One quick question for anyone who knows: Do the Harbinger packs offer the same initial mini's run as the starter packs, or do you get separate stuff in the harbinger packs from the starter packs? If it's the same, I would be better off buying 2 harbinger packs than 1 starter pack, because you get twice as many rares as buying the starter pack, correct?
 

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