D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

Personally, I'd prefer if 21+ was the 'super hero' category and everything below 20 was still mostly a mortal even if they represented one-in-several-billion skill levels relative to the average joe.

This is one of the issues.

From low level onward casters are doing fantastic things that alter/bend/break reality.

Martials, even high level ones, are often worse at real world feats than competent athletes in the real world (I'm not talking about dealing damage - martials can do that just fine).

Substantively, I think 5e has brought casters down sufficiently (IMO and for the most part). It's time to start bringing martials up, let them do things that are actually mythic or fantastical without the express use of magic (giving martials magic is 5e's approach to everything and that's a little too broad for me).
 

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Fair enough. Even superheroes tend to only have a handful of powers to choose from. Simple character concepts can be just as fun as complex ones.
I know it's going to vary and that there is no one true way but for me the PCs personality and decisions mean more than their powers. As long as I feel like I'm contributing to the success of the team it's all good. I also think it's partly the responsibility of the DM to ensure that different people share the spotlight now and then. If every encounter is trap-infested and the only way to survive is to be stealthy then everyone would likely play a rogue.

That, and striving for perfect balance is a never ending rabbit hole and IMHO an unachievable goal.
 

yeah i want both... if (imagine numbers out of butt) wizards are at 12 and fighters at 7 bring them both to 10...
So, slow down casters (not just wizards, after all) a bit and speed up martials?

On the caster side, the fix is pretty simple (at least for a starting point), would be to slow down spell level progression and spell slots as well.

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A lot can be done for martials, as there have been numerous threads on this, but no one ever really seems interested in making changes instead of just talking about it. 🤷‍♂️
 

Ultimately, to give martials more cool and impactful things to do, shouldn't we lean more into the tactical war-game element? If so, that's a problem since WotC's current trend is not toward more rules complexity or granularity.
or we could give them more out of combat stuff. focus on how a fighter does social encounters how the rogue engages the exploration encounters ect.
 

So, slow down casters (not just wizards, after all) a bit and speed up martials?

On the caster side, the fix is pretty simple (at least for a starting point), would be to slow down spell level progression and spell slots as well.

View attachment 151175

A lot can be done for martials, as there have been numerous threads on this, but no one ever really seems interested in making changes instead of just talking about it. 🤷‍♂️

When people talk about making martials "better" there's scant suggestions on how to do it other than to make them into some variation of a comic book superhero with no details. I don't want my fighter to suddenly be able to shoot laser beams out of their eyes, so what else do we have?
 

So, slow down casters (not just wizards, after all) a bit and speed up martials?

On the caster side, the fix is pretty simple (at least for a starting point), would be to slow down spell level progression and spell slots as well.

View attachment 151175

A lot can be done for martials, as there have been numerous threads on this, but no one ever really seems interested in making changes instead of just talking about it. 🤷‍♂️
looks good i keep thinking the warlock chasie... a bunch of at wills a couple powerful spells perX and the big spells 6+ get chosen 1 time and are all 1 per day
 

or we could give them more out of combat stuff. focus on how a fighter does social encounters how the rogue engages the exploration encounters ect.

Tasha's already took a tiny step in that direction by allowing Battlemasters to take manuevers that add their superiority die to things like performance, persuasion, intimidation etc.

More stuff like that can go a long way.
 

There are fairly easy way to counteract this. First, antimagic can become frequent at higher level. Good luck casters...

Magic resistance also becomes more common at high level, and that is certainly a martial boost as well.

That being said, the magic resistance of 5e is a bit limited, so, although I have not needed it so far even in high level, I'm considering giving powerful adversaries real magic resistance à la 3e, with a number that needs to be beaten by a casting ability check.

Honestly, a good combination of this makes martial strong again.
 

TLDR: WotC said the quite part out loud, caster rule and noncasters drool

Okay, so there are a series of interviews (I think each has it's own thread) and part of one of them Chris Perkins says "a lot of high level spells could just be renamed shenanigan's" (I may not have exact wording right) but then goes on to say that is what makes D&D what it is, when the players pull some shenanigans and change everything...
...
High level spellcasters have TOO MANY ups over high level martial characters. Heck middle level (7-10) full casters have more game changing abilities then most epic level martial characters. and WotC just admitted it.
This seems like strange framing. That D&D has a problem with martial-caster agency imbalance at upper levels (to some, that being anything over ~level 6) is not some hush-hush secret that no one acknowledges, it's been one of the primary points of discussion about the game for several decades. Beyond that, they aren't admitting something (as in what one does with a transgression), but acknowledging it. I'm sure if WotC were really saying the quiet parts loud, it would instead be something like, 'we tried taking baby steps towards fixing this problem, both in late 3e (see weaboo fahtan whatever meme) and in 4e, and people (to a lessor or greater degree, depending upon whom you ask) rejected it.'

Regardless, yes, this is indeed a problem, and has been since the beginning. High levels were seen as some faraway place wherein people probably wouldn't much want to play, and when they were, the fighter having either an army or a golf bag full of magic items (many of which were fighter-only) was seen as a reasonable offset to the high level wizard (who, admittedly, really were a pain in the rear to play). The game has slowly wiped away the fighter=general and fighter=better loot and wizard=highly restricted bits and never really addressed (excepting bo9s and 4e) the underlying imbalance.

Even beyond class differences, D&D has a fundamental framing where magic can just solve a lot of things while mundane solutions are constrained or muted or vague. Even 3e and 4e, which had the most complex skill and world-task-resolution systems had systems which were rigorous, definitive, and weak (excepting the rare exception like 3e Diplomancer, which great makes one semi-mundane build work well but does nothing for any other style of play). Part of that has to do with the game shuffling complex things off into spells (early Rangers getting spells to emulate Aragorn's herb lore because there wasn't yet a skill system), but also because the D&D audience tends to interpret complex systems in-game as magic (Bo9S abilities are 'spell like' pretty much because the audience looks at them and says 'that's a spell by another name' even for the ones that have no obvious supernatural effect).

Yeah I dunno either but I imagine WotC has some idea. Given that 40+ players are only 13% of the market, and the bulk of the market has basically been raised on superheroes and quasi-supeheroes, I suspect they'd be more open to it than us coffin-dodgers.

5e was designed without knowing ahead of time that it would be a smash hit with the new-to-gaming market (and supposedly with an eye towards recapturing part of the market that left in the/at the end of the TSR era). It will be interesting to see what design elements are on the table now that they know this. Perhaps some more, 4e-level breaks with tradition will be deemed acceptable now.

I tend to agree re: pulling casters down. I think we could elevate martials a bit, just with some more interesting ability design (without necessarily going "full superhero", just like keeping it in the literary fantasy/action hero zone), but the top end stuff with casters, and really anything above level 5 spells gets so dominant that it can very quickly become the focus of play even in 5E (especially given the sheer number of spells they can cast at that point). So I think slower progression of spell levels and capping spells at like L6 or L7, and just reconsidering every spell above that level. Really direct combat spells weirdly are not the main issue, it's all the rest.
There were some very specific decisions that could have not happened and had differing outcomes. Some of them being combat: Keeping all the numbers closer together and weaker creatures a threat longer makes summoning/minionmancy more powerful than it otherwise would be. If you shapechange/are shapechanged and hit 0 hp you revert to your normal form instead of just dropping/dying like you might in AD&D. The save math has been changed to make you fail your saves more often, which is good since the consequences of failure are in theory lessoned and thus no more save-or-dies, but that hasn't held up universally. Force Wall and Force cage (and Leodmund's Hut) are immune to damage when they just as easily could have AC and HP like any other obstacle (how many genre fictions have force fields get overloaded?). Others, yes, it is frustrating how much you can spend on mundanes skills and preparations only to have a druid with goodberry and pass without trace or a wizard with knock and passwall solve all the problems. Spells per day are a limit, but I think it seems really common that they just aren't enough of one to actively select a mundane character build (it would be different if you were choosing magical or non-magical tools when planning a given adventure, but when you have to have immutable facets of your character dedicated to the role, the frequency of ('we'll be in a dungeon with more locks than you can cast knocks') is simply insufficient.
 
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or we could give them more out of combat stuff. focus on how a fighter does social encounters how the rogue engages the exploration encounters ect.
"Fighter" has been, unsurprisingly, pigeon-holed into just doing fighting/combat things. They should also be the athletics/feats of strength/endurance type character but barbarian has largely gobbled up that design space.
 

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