D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Remathilis]

There are systems that handle such power differences in superheroes well (e.g., Cortex, Fate, etc.) because of how these systems prioritize the simulation of the fiction and the narrative space of the characters, but [-]5e[-] D&D is not one of those games.

Slight correction, but yes. D&D has never been good at plot-driven abilities. The closest it gets is AC and HP, and they're a source of countless headache.

 

[FrozenNorth]

No, characters in my games don't seek out items in general, they find them by chance 90% of the time.

Don’t or can’t? If the characters simply choose not to seek out magical items that increase their power, then I agree that it makes it a lot easier for the DM to balance.

By the same token, it should not be assumed that the characters won’t seek out magical items to make them more powerful.

No, it isn't hard, but they have to have the spells known or prepared to do it. It can certainly happen, but isn't an assumed.

A level 11 wizard will likely have 14 to 16 spells prepared, and choose their spells at level up. It takes up 4 spells to have spells that target Str, Dex, Int and Wis. The opportunity cost is negligeable.

Meanwhile, the opportunity cost for the fighter to have 4-5 magic items to shore up his deficiencies is considerable, since he only has 3 attunement slots (and has to obtain the magical items as well).

 

[nevin]

I’m not sure it is a self-inflicted wound. Of the posters that I recognize that seek to limit fighters, most are DMs, and the one that isn’t doesn’t even play 5e.

in my experience most of the complaining comes from people that want to play gritty "realistic" low magic games. D&D and pathfinder have never been that game. Martials need magic items to compete after level 5ish. Also the Wizards destroying the narrative is in my experience only a problem for the above DM's or inexperienced DM's . But D&D was also designed that at high levels fighters got keeps, Paladins formed orders, rogues could become crime bosses, Clerics became leaders of temples and advisors to kings, and confidantes of gods, they were supposed to changing the narrative also.
If your playing high level D&D games as a nitty gritty low magic mess then quit whining it was never made for that.

 

[nevin]

Don’t or can’t? If the characters simply choose not to seek out magical items that increase their power, then I agree that it makes it a lot easier for the DM to balance.

By the same token, it should not be assumed that the characters won’t seek out magical items to make them more powerful.


A level 11 wizard will likely have 14 to 16 spells prepared, and choose their spells at level up. It takes up 4 spells to have spells that target Str, Dex, Int and Wis. The opportunity cost is negligeable.

Meanwhile, the opportunity cost for the fighter to have 4-5 magic items to shore up his deficiencies is considerable, since he only has 3 attunement slots (and has to obtain the magical items as well).

I just ignore attunement. Attument is stupid if a wizard is getting full spell progression.

 

[Minigiant]

Those are races, not classes.

I don't agree. Their races(or perhaps templates, depending on the individual) give them an edge in their class. They aren't a separate class. Basically, Steve Rogers just has enhanced strength, endurance and reflexes. That could be modeled with special abilities and enhanced stats. His increased fighting ability and reflexes could be modeled with a +4 to hit, dex saves and AC.

I want the fighter to eventually achieve Captain America by 20th level. The examples you are showing above were born with their abilities and improvements, or had them added later through a process that has nothing to do with class.

5e doesn't have level adjustments.

The way to model in 5e is a setting based class.

 

[Mort]

Don’t or can’t? If the characters simply choose not to seek out magical items that increase their power, then I agree that it makes it a lot easier for the DM to balance.

By the same token, it should not be assumed that the characters won’t seek out magical items to make them more powerful.


A level 11 wizard will likely have 14 to 16 spells prepared, and choose their spells at level up. It takes up 4 spells to have spells that target Str, Dex, Int and Wis. The opportunity cost is negligeable.

Meanwhile, the opportunity cost for the fighter to have 4-5 magic items to shore up his deficiencies is considerable, since he only has 3 attunement slots (and has to obtain the magical items as well).

Exactly this:

A wizard can switch up his spells based on the situation. He can have an exploration spell mode, a social spell mode and/or a combat spell mode. Note the wizard will still, almost certainly, have enough spells available (prepared) to be just fine in a fight or social situation, even if that's not what they prepared for (for ex. suggestion is great for combat AND social situations). Magic items are gravy and allow the wizard to devote less resources to a given area (for ex. the staff of defense).

Fighters, on the other hand, get what they get and that's it. If a fighter wants to be good at exploration or social rather than combat, they will have to devote a feat (if they're even allowed) or a maneuver, both of which PERMANANTLY subtract from the fighters ability to perform in another (the non-selected) area, usually combat. I think maneuvers can be swapped out at certain levels, but that's still a HUGE commitment. So the fighter is utterly reliant on finding magic items to shore up the gaps - but these are at the whim of the DM.

 

[Remathilis]

Exactly this:

A wizard can switch up his spells based on the situation. He can have an exploration spell mode, a social spell mode and/or a combat spell mode. Note the wizard will still, almost certainly, have enough spells available (prepared) to be just fine in a fight or social situation, even if that's not what they prepared for (for ex. suggestion is great for combat AND social situations). Magic items are gravy and allow the wizard to devote less resources to a given area (for ex. the staff of defense).

Fighters, on the other hand, get what they get and that's it. If a fighter wants to be good at exploration or social rather than combat, they will have to devote a feat (if they're even allowed) or a maneuver, both of which PERMANANTLY subtract from the fighters ability to perform in another (the non-selected) area, usually combat. I think maneuvers can be swapped out at certain levels, but that's still a HUGE commitment. So the fighter is utterly reliant on finding magic items to shore up the gaps - but these are at the whim of the DM.

Sounds like a good reason to replace wizards with sorcerers; finite spell lists that only changes at level up.

 

[Gnosistika]

I keep meaning to look at Fantasy AGE, aren't they working on a 2.0?

Not really a 2.0, more an expanded rules book. The core system is exactly the same as before. They simply added a new class, changed a few rules.

 

[HammerMan]

Everyone saying "We don't want superhero stuff" is implying that its too far

batman, black widow, john wick, xena, and any jackie chan or steven segal character can all out everything any straight martial character

all of them atleast need monk levels if not straight up reflavored spell casting

 

[HammerMan]

I personally don't think they're fine a is. At 10th level the valor bard has one less ASI than a fighter, the same number of attacks, 1 less HP per level and FULL casting. On top of a bunch of other class abilities that are actually good. And that's the WEAK bard!

Fighters aren't even particularly good at fighting. It's just they suck so much at everything else.

yup the war cleric makes the valor bard look bad and the valor bard make the fighter look like a chump