gonna repeat something I've posted several times. Wizards can do crazy things if they know what's coming and they can have the right spells prepared. In all the years I've played and run games most of the time the party has no idea what's coming so they have to guess. Wizards who are guessing end up with a lot of suboptimal spells .
D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic
- Thread starter HammerMan
- Start date
DND_Reborn
The High Aldwin
Yeah, I must have missed that since I choose to ignore him after he wouldn't drop the Readied Extra Attack discussion. I'm sorry if he said stuff like that, a character (any class) shouldn't have to be optimized to feel useful and fun to play.
So far I know @Oofta has commented he felt triple jumps and such are too much for him, but that is the only individual who has posted IIRC about wanting that level of "realism" when it comes to heroic feats of physical prowess.
Its unfortunate really, because I feel the game could reach a happier middle ground where 90% of the players could get what they want (or close enough to it with a bit of tweaking) instead of just 40-50%.
Anyway, as fun (and crazy) as this has been for the last 24 hours or so, it still isn't getting anywhere meaningful.
Do you have any input on this type of idea for jumping (as a start):
D&D General - Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic
Ok, first explain to me how this: so do the example. Give me 2 equally well equiped equally well made characters 1 spell caster 1 non spellcaster and make both equally useful in all ways... has to do with what I said: Then I feel a bit badly for you because I never see that... If that is...
www.enworld.org
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
I've run a pretty successful campaign with a houserule of "Max spell level you can know is 1/4 of your level (round all fractions up).
While there were a higher proportion of martials and half-casters that you would generally find in 5e, both the wizard and the cleric held their own quite comfortably. (Upcasting much better than the half-casters could.)
If I were to do it again, I would probably do a non-linear progression that allowed more rapid progression at lower levels and tapering off to max out at level 6 or 7 spells I think.
I think the Jump example was picked because it sounds like a physical feat that a near-mythic physical hero would do, it makes little difference in combat but helps in a few non-combat challenges so it isn't a big power boost, and it is extraordinary enough to punch the "if a guy in my gym can't do it then neither can a legendary fighter hero"-types right in the v-tudes.
um... how many encounters is proper at 20th level? cause 15-18 3rd level spells or higher (plus 10 more levels due to arcane recovery if we give a short rest) and a 1st and 2nd level spell at will plus scaled at wills is ALOT of encounters.
lets say 5 encounters then a short rest then 2 more... each average 4 rounds. the first 20 rounds (all 5 encounters) the wizard is 'stuck' with 'only' cantrips 1st and 2nd level spells for 2-5 of them... then in the last 8 rouds (last 2 encounters) has recalled 10 levels of spells lets say 2 3rd and a 4th so that leaves 5 rounds left for 1st second and cantrips...
so over 7 encounters the wizard had to use cantrips or 1st and second level spells 7-10 rounds... and has 7 1st and second level spells
also rituals...
lol less then half is 3-4 at 20th level 4 5 round fights and the wizard can forget he knows 1st and 2nd level spells
yup... when the wizard isn't altering reality to suit there wim (lets just say 6th+ level spells) 5/ day and for free casting 2 3rd level spells, and useing a 1st or 2nd level at will they have to do slightly less damage.
yeah... again not every day is a "Cast shananagians" game... but when it is it's 90% caster 10% other and that 10% is almost always something the caster could do too
Then give some specifics. The only example you gave was fireball so that's what I responded to.
FrozenNorth
Hero
If you are comparing things, you need something to compare it TO. Saying that a Wizard that spends 4 prepared spells on targeting particular saves is a substantial investment is laughable when you consider that even after this investment, they have as many spells prepared as many of the other full casters (including Sorcerers).
actually you responded to Jump first, but okay
a 9th level bard has Xd8 insperation per short rest to aid self or allies or hinder enemies... what does a fighter have like that?
Knock.,, this is easy why can't my strong fighter kick in a wizard lock (bonus the drawback of noise still works with a good kick)
expedite retreat, jump, and stone skin are all buffs that could be reflavored to a warriors training.
mage armor is aa daily spell for wizards, cleric and bards (not with standing secrets) cant at all, and warlocks can pick it up at will. at it's base it is set your unarmored AC to 13+dex. I mean that isn't really anything we could give a fighter a mini feat that does that and it wouldn't even be optimal
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
At 20th level low level spells and rituals are nearly worthless and do far less than that 20th level fighter is doing.
At 20th level the wizard has 12 slots of 4th level or higher, which for medium to hard CR 20+ encounters are what you want to use. At 4 a fight, you're done in 3 fights. With Arcane Recovery you can eek in half of a 4th fight. So 3 and a half fights and you're done with the vast majority of your combat usefulness. That leaves 2.5 to 4.5 fights where you are very subpar to the fighter.
So go ahead and nova yourself out of half the fights. My fighter is going to truck along and catch back up at the end. Without magic items.
Basic math dude. 4d10 is an average of 22 points of damage. 2d6+15 is an average of 22 points of damage. Then the fighter swings 3 more times. 1st and 2nd level spells are as bad or worse than scaling cantrips, since they don't scale. The wizard is being blown out of the water.
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Well in my High games the martials and rogues have plenty of shenanigans they can play with high level items or just thier own intelligence. Had a rogue in one party drug the mage, tie him up and had his guild torture him for about a week because he was bad for business. then they let him go with a warning. He never knew his own party member helped. But he was much more worried about how his spells affected the cities he was in after that. And a mage casting some big spell is no different than a cleric doing it or a rogue killing the king, or the high cleric, or the fighter starting a war with the local thieves guild and completely derailing the party and DM's plans. If your powerful mages aren't afraid of kings, nobles and high level , Clerics, Paladins, and rogues your not a very good DM. no one can watch thier back every minute of every day.
for those Dm's that only want to run dungeon crawls and don't let the campaign world impact things, find a different system, your never going to be happy with D&D or pathfinder.
