D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Maxperson]

Faster does not mean better. It just means faster. And fighters aren't punching a thousand times. They're punching two or four times. I can flail around a lot, but I certainly wouldn't hit very often. More opportunities to hit isn't the same thing as being skilled at hitting, because it means they have more opportunities to miss as well.

As I said, fighters should both be better at attacks (such as by a weapon specialization ability, or by getting a nonmagical +1 to attack rolls at a certain level, or by extending the crit range at a certain level) and have multiple attacks per round. This isn't an either/or thing.


They "can," but they don't, because the attack bonus isn't any better. Rogues and monks both have Aim abilities--rogues can't move while Aiming, and monks have to spend ki--and that, I feel, does a much better job of representing skill than just being fast at it. Why not give fighters something similar? When they use their Extra Attack, if they make all attacks on a single target, then the last attack is made at advantage. This represents them studying how their foe is moving on that turn.

You should do some boxing research. The best fighter isn't always the one who is most accurate. This idea you have that the best fighter is the one who has the highest plus to hit is a real head scratcher.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It's not really a Fighter or nothing here. Paladins and Rangers exist as well as other gishes. Spells give Paladins and Rangers greater mechanical agency.

when compairing casters to non casters you have to remember you are talking 3/4 fighter 3/4 rogues all barbarians, and most monks... against all wizards, all bards, all palidens, all rangers, all warlocks, all sorcerers, arcane tricksters and eldritch knights ect ect ect... most of the game is casters.

a cleric of war gets 2 attacks heavy armor and martial weapon profs 1 asi/feat less in levels 1-10 and 2 down from level 20... they loose action surge and second wind (but have much better selfheal options) but trade that for a full boat of spellcasting. they do on average have 1 less hp per level.

with the new rules from optional books allowed in a dwarf wizard bladesinger can have +2 to two stats so Int and Con or INt and Dex or Int and Str and get +1hp per level bringing them pretty close to fighters (not match but close) use the second attack to use a cantrip that scales and allows for an attack (green flame blade or booming blade...I think there is a 3rd one) supposedly the game is balanced well enough this is okay.

you can't tell me that a group with that dwarf bladsinger (full caster) my artificer from saterday night (half caster) and a war cleric (full caster) is worse off or equal to a party of 3 fighters (1 battle master, 1 samari, 1 champion)... wait this isn't fair my artificer is also a skill monkey, lets spot them a rogue (theif) as there 4th that we wont have.

 

[Maxperson]

1 in 20 is still absurdly dangerous.

A mile is 5280 ft. The area of a square mile is a little under 28 million square feet. 5% of 28 million is 1,400,000 square feet. The standard 5 foot square is 25 square feet, so if we divide 1,400,000 by 25 we get a result of 56,000 standard 5 ft squares of danger in a single square mile of land (actually slightly less than that since I rounded up).

Did you calculate and remove all the areas that can't be counted, like every tree and bush and other solid objects? I didn't think so. Now also calculate that a single deadly monster can make an area 100 yards(14,135 five foot squares) or more in radius deadly.

You can see how insane that would be, don't you?

Yes, bad math is bad. The real math is not nearly so insane.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Foresight is a slot-9 Wizard spell. It could even qualify as a hypothetical slot-10 spell, alongside Wish. Foresight is powerful.

Despite the fact that Foresight boosts combat, and the Fighter is already effective in the combat pillar, Foresight is thematically appropriate for a legendary Fighter.

yeah I gave foresight at will to a 13th level fighter once and it was great. the fluff was that he touched the primal seed of the universe and can now foresee events. I also let them cast the weel/woe diviniation spell once per short or long rest as part of the same power up... it was quite the sight to see.

none of the casters felt overwhelmed.

 

[Yaarel]

yeah I gave foresight at will to a 13th level fighter once and it was great.

Heh, your name is GM for Powergamers!

the fluff was that he touched the primal seed of the universe and can now foresee events. I also let them cast the weel/woe diviniation spell once per short or long rest as part of the same power up... it was quite the sight to see.

none of the casters felt overwhelmed.

Especially, the premodern concept of "fate", something like modern timelines, makes the legendary Fighter a facet of destiny.

The fluff of fate is appropriate "magic" for a high level Fighter.

 

[Maxperson]

yeah I gave foresight at will to a 13th level fighter once and it was great. the fluff was that he touched the primal seed of the universe and can now foresee events. I also let them cast the weel/woe diviniation spell once per short or long rest as part of the same power up... it was quite the sight to see.

none of the casters felt overwhelmed.

I don't even think you need to make it so overtly magical. You could just describe it as a hyper awareness and ability to read opponents so well that you can advantage and they have disadvantage. At will could be a bit broken, though.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Did you calculate and remove all the areas that can't be counted, like every tree and bush and other solid objects? I didn't think so. Now also calculate that a single deadly monster can make an area 100 yards(14,135 five foot squares) or more in radius deadly.

Yes, bad math is bad. The real math is not nearly so insane.

Monsters in your world magically know if a party teleports within 300 ft of them? It's not as though Teleport is Thunderclap. The party stealths and assesses their situation, denying the monster the opportunity to notice them. That's good practice even with a campsite, and I would think, SOP. I'm surprised that a DM whose players won't even light a campfire at night wouldn't expect them to do so. And I know what you're going to say, the fighter doesn't have a good stealth check, amiright? But, I would hope, that at an average of 150 ft away, that monster's DC to notice a party that isn't being particularly noisy would be rather high. Moreover, the monster doesn't just need to be dangerous to the average farmer, it would need to be dangerous to a party capable of casting Teleport, which is a pretty high bar.

And monster couldn't possibly hide in a bush, or perch in a tree, or sit on top of a solid object like a boulder? They're not exclusive. You can have both.

 

[Maxperson]

Monsters in your world magically know if a party teleports within 300 ft of them?

This is tiresome. Dangerous doesn't mean that it will happen, only that it could. Given the number of objects that limit the footage a teleport can bring you to and monster ranges, the math isn't insane at all. 1 in 20 is plenty appropriate for being out in a dangerous area.

I get that you want teleport to be handled with kiddie gloves. I don't. I treat it like it should be treated. As something that is dangerous and could make the wizard safe or sorry, depending on how the dice gods rule things.

 

[Fanaelialae]

@Maxperson
So a 1/20 chance that there's danger nearby, but not necessarily that the party is in any immediate danger? That doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

It also doesn't seem like something that's all that risky if you only use teleport to escape the occasional encounter.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

But my point is, if there is no Fighter who is removing these foes from play. The Wizard is soon dead.

Summon might offer a delay − but normally fails to resolve the threat.

That is generally what the other wizards and their summons are up to.

Yea. Crits aren't fun for front liners either. But if they are near max hp they are almost certainly going to still be standing from one. Wizards, that's often more of a coin flip.

Wizards may well have ~70% of the fighter's HP, and even taking AC into account, frontliners tend to get hit more.