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Christian Magic

mmadsen

First Post
Part II, Question I, Chapter XVI has some excellent bits:

Chapter XVI Of Three Ways in which Men and Women may be Discovered to be Addicted to Witchcraft: Divided into Three Heads: and First of the Witchcraft of Archers.

FOR our present purpose the last class of witchcraft is that which is practised in three forms by men; and first we must consider the seven deadly and horrible crimes which are committed by wizards who are archers. For first, on the Sacred Day of the Passion of Our Lord, that is to say, on Good Friday, as it is called, during the solemnization of the Mass of the Presanctified they shoot with arrows, as at a target, at the most sacred image of the Crucifix. Oh, the cruelty and injury to the Saviour! Secondly, though there is some doubt whether they have to utter a verbal form of apostasy to the devil in addition to that apostasy of deed, yet whether it be so or not, no greater injury to the Faith can be done by a Christian. For it is certain that, if such things were done by an infidel, they would be of no efficacy; for no such easy method of gratifying their hostility to the Faith is granted to them. Therefore these wretches ought to consider the truth and power of the Catholic Faith, for the confirmation of which God justly permits such crimes.

Thirdly, such an archer has to shoot three or four arrows in this way, and as a consequence he is able to kill on any day just the same number of men. Fourthly, they have the following assurance from the devil; that though they must first actually set eyes on the man they wish to kill, and must bend their whole will on killing him, yet it matter not where the man may shut himself up, for he cannot be protected, but the arrows which have been shot will be carried and struck into him by the devil.

Fifthly, they can shoot an arrow with such precision as to shoot a penny from a person's head without hurting his head, and they can continue to do this indefinitely. Sixthly, in order to gain this power they have to offer homage of body and soul to the devil. We shall give some instances of this sort of practice.

For a certain prince of the Rhineland, named Eberhard Longbeard because he let his beard grow, had, before he was sixty years old, acquired for himself some of the Imperial territory, and was besieging a certain castle named Lendenbrunnen because of the raids which were made by the men of the castle. And he had in his company a wizard of this sort, named Puncker, who so molested the men of the castle that he killed them all in succession with his arrows, except one. And this is how he proceeded. Whenever he had looked at a man, it did not matter where that man went to or hid himself, he had only to loose an arrow and that man was mortally wounded and killed; and he was able to shoot three such arrows every day because he had shot three arrows at the image of the Saviour. It is probable that the devil favours the number three more than any other, because it represents an effective denial of the Holy Trinity. But after he had shot those three arrows, he could only shoot with the same uncertainty as other men. At last one of the men of the castle called out to him mockingly, “Puncker, will you not at least spare the ring which hangs in the gate?” And he answered from outside in the night, “No; I shall take it away on the day that the castle is captured.” And he fulfilled his promise: for when, as has been said, all were killed except one, and the castle had been taken, he took that ring and hung it in his own house at Rorbach in the diocese of Worms, where it can be seen hanging to this day. But afterwards he was one night killed with their spades by some peasants whom he had injured, and he perished in his sins.
Lots of campaign potential in this part:
And first, if a prince or secular potentate employ such a wizard as we have described for the destruction of some castle in a just war, and with his help crushes the tyranny of wicked men; is his whole army to be considered as protectors and patrons of that wizard, and to be subjected to the penalties we have mentioned? The answer seems to be that the rigour of justice must be tempered on account of their numbers. For the leader, with his counsellors and advisers, must be considered to have aided and abetted such witchcraft, and they are by law implicated in the aforesaid penalties when, after being warned by their spiritual advisers, they have persisted in their bad course; and then they are to be judged protectors and patrons, and are to be punished. But the rest of the army, since they have no part in their leaders' council, but are simply prepared to risk their lives in defence of their country, although they may view with approval the feats of the wizard, nevertheless escape the sentence of excommunication; but they must in their confession acknowledge the guilt of the wizard, and in their absolution by the confessor must receive a solemn warning to hold all such practices for ever in detestation, and as far as they are able drive from their land all such wizards.
 
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mythusmage

Banned
Banned
Trouble is, the Malleus Maleficarum was produced in the 16th century, well after the 1200s. Official Church policy regarding remnant pagan practices was very different in the 13th century than it would become in the 15th and 16th centuries.

In short, things changed over the course of time. Europe went through a crisis with the epidemics we now call the Black Death, and it changed fundamentally how people interacted with authority, and with each other. The entire fabric of society was altered so drastically people just a few generations from their 13th century ancestors could not understand how their forebears thought. How they believed and how they saw the world they lived in.

No, the Malleus Maleficarum is not a good book for Europe in the 13th century.
 

Nisarg

Banned
Banned
mythusmage said:
Trouble is, the Malleus Maleficarum was produced in the 16th century, well after the 1200s. Official Church policy regarding remnant pagan practices was very different in the 13th century than it would become in the 15th and 16th centuries.

In short, things changed over the course of time. Europe went through a crisis with the epidemics we now call the Black Death, and it changed fundamentally how people interacted with authority, and with each other. The entire fabric of society was altered so drastically people just a few generations from their 13th century ancestors could not understand how their forebears thought. How they believed and how they saw the world they lived in.

No, the Malleus Maleficarum is not a good book for Europe in the 13th century.


What MythusMage said.. I was just about to post ths when I saw he'd already done it for me.

I would add that it appears that there was a serious change in the perception of witchcraft before and after the publication of the Malleus Maleficarum. Prior to the time of its publication, it was generally perceived by "educated" people that witches had no true power. They were rarely persecuted for witchcraft per se, the church was much more concerned with overall heresy.

The real "witch-craze" in Europe was a phenomenon that didn't really take off until the 15th century.

Nisarg
 

kirinke

First Post
And actually, alot of scientists now think that the 'witch craze' thing was due to naturally occuring hallucinogenics found in spoiled bread. Notably rye bread which alot of the poor/middle class people ate at the time. And places where they didn't have rye bread or the hallucinogenics didn't spread on the chaff, had little incidents of witch-burnings. Interesting huh? My discovery-fu is great. :)

On-topic though.
For game purposes, God probably would be basically a weather deity, who slowly over time acquired more portfolios as his church increased in numbers.
 

fusangite

First Post
kirinke said:
And actually, alot of scientists now think that the 'witch craze' thing was due to naturally occuring hallucinogenics found in spoiled bread. Notably rye bread which alot of the poor/middle class people ate at the time. And places where they didn't have rye bread or the hallucinogenics didn't spread on the chaff, had little incidents of witch-burnings. Interesting huh? My discovery-fu is great. :)

While this may have been a contributory factor in some regions, issues of wealth, power, public morality and a changing climate are considered to have been more significant factors.

On-topic though.
For game purposes, God probably would be basically a weather deity, who slowly over time acquired more portfolios as his church increased in numbers.

Actually, your first statement was more on-topic than this. Thanks anyway, though. :)
 



NewJeffCT

First Post
great thread so far. I always respect your view fusangite, even if I don't always agree with it.

But, in the 13th century, while Catholicism was the dominant religion of Western Europe, I believe the Moors/Muslims were still being pushed out of Spain/Iberia and had footholds in places like Sicily, Asia Minor & the Middle East (hence, the Crusades). How are you going to handle other major religions, as Orthodox Christianity still was popular in Eastern Europe as well?

Also, will there be a Pope or equivalent in your world? Will Catholic kings have to worry about following Papal edicts or risk excommunication?

I believe the 13th century was when Europe was almost run over by the then pagan Mongols (somewhere in the 1225-1240, I think?), being saved only by the Khan falling off his horse & breaking his neck in a drunken victory celebration (it's debatable that the Mongols could have conquered Europe, but a small Mongol force had basically annihilated a large combined force of Poles and Germans with some French Templar Knights thrown in for good measure, so they were a major threat even if they could not conquer Europe...) The Mongols later converted to Islam as well.
 

cstyle

First Post
Which book to buy?

OK, I'm into this sort of thing, and I've been meaning to purchase ONE source book. I had heard from more than one person that Expeditious Retreat's A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe was the greatest thing since sliced bread. So I'm reading this post, and there is overwhelming support for Green Ronin's Medieval Player's Manual. So much so that I feel like MMS is getting thrown under a bus. Now, I know that isn't true, a few people actually did briefly say good things about MMS, but all this praise for MPM certainly has me second guessing my next purchase!

So which book do I buy? Let me first say that I may not even run a Medieval game, I just enjoy history and anthropolgy, and I love that time in history. As a GM, the books I tend to really like are the ones that are great idea books. If I'm often having to put the book down to go jot down new ideas in my GM cookbook, then I know it's a good read.

What I don't want to see:
* "Buy MPM. It's great!" Obviously it's a good book, based on all the support already given in the thread.
* "Buy MMS. It's great!" Based on what I've already heard, I'm pretty confident MMS is also a good read. The question is which book is the right one for me?

What I want to see:
* Responses only from people who have read BOTH books, which one you would recommend, and why. Listing pros and cons for each would be great!

Thank you in advance!

PS. Good luck fusangite!
 

Nisarg

Banned
Banned
<best Baldrick voice>
"Well basically in medieval christian magic there are four major profit areas: curses, pardons, relics, and selling sexual favours with nuns"
</best Baldrick voice>

:D

Nisarg
 

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