D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[ECMO3]

Quik e


I did when I have the number of impacted squares of 15 ft compared to 25 ft radius. They way math works, increasing by 10 ft is not increasing by 66%, but by 3x the impacted area.

ok. If your goal is to get the most number of squares under your SG to look cool this will be very effective. If your goal is to win the combat efficiently with minimal cost in terms of resources for the party it won't be.

Increasing AOE by 300% does not mean 300% better in combat, it doesn't even generally mean 20% better in combat.

No, I am not saying that. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it's situational so it's hard to say if you impact 4 creatures or 6 creatures or 9 creatures. I didn't say it's highly situational that it only occurs in long combats surrounded by enemies. I'll show the math in a second to show that even if it's just a few creatures, it's a far better option.

You said you would only use spirit guardians when surrounded by enemies and in an earlier thread you said you would only use spirit guardians in long combat

Show the math

9th Level Eldritch Knight

1. Dual Wielder, Light weapons, two weapon fighting, warmagic, Green Flame Blade 10 intelligence:
4d6+2d8+15=38

2. Sword and board Spear, PAM, Warmagic, Dueling, Green Flame Blade with 20 strength and 10 intelligence:
2d6+1d4+2d8+21=39.5

3. Greatsword, GWM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence:
4d6+2d8+18=41

4: Greataxe, GWM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence
3d12+2d8+22=50.5

5. Halberd, GWM, PAM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence:
3d10+1d4+2d8+27=55

That is raw damage with 100% hits and does not consider crits, action surge, magic weapons, GWF, Vex, Topple, or Graze. It does include Nick and Cleave where applicable.


Now show me your 9th level eldritch knight build that is doing "a couple of attacks at 1d8+4".

Your own anecdotal experience is not a citation. Please show proof that the typical 5e encounter is less than 3 rounds long, less at higher levels. Everything I could find from others' experiences is 5-7 rounds.

I don't need to show proof. Also show me your citation about 5-7 rounds. I said mine is from my experience, you are saying yours is not from your experience, so show me that.

The eldritch knight has 2 attacks per round at 1d8+4 damage (assuming 20 str).

Where do you get this from? No 9th level Eldritch Knight is making 2 attacks with a 1d8 weapon, 20 strength is +5 not +4 and an Eldritch Knight uses a cantrip with the attack action.

And guess what, the numbers above are for a 9th level EK. For some reason I thought Blade Barrier was a 5th level spell, it is a 6th level spell, the numbers ranging from 38-55 that I posted above are not even accurate because I should have been using an 11th level EK instead of 9th level. Here are those new numbers for each example rescaling to an 11th level EK:

1. 55.5 damage
2. 57 damage
3. 62 damage
4. 71 damage
5. 74.5 damage

That EK can either move and attack one hobgoblin for 17 damage.

No at 11th level (what I should have been using) it should be well above 50 damage on most builds.

Even with a basic 20 strength, warmagic, no fighting style, no weapon mastery, no feats and no buffs against a single target it would still be 33 damage, nearly twice the number you quoted.

I mean I guess I could pruposely do less damage, just like the Cleric can decide that not all the enemies are affected by Spirit Guardians, but why would they?

he EK spends a level 1 spell slot to augment SG. It immediately impacts 2 additional creatures for 13.5 damage each.

Which is WAY WAY less than an EK is going to do with an attack action. It is less than a weak EK will do.

 

[Sacrosanct]

ok. If your goal is to get the most number of squares under your SG to look cool this will be very effective. If your goal is to win the combat efficiently with minimal cost in terms of resources for the party it won't be.

Increasing AOE by 300% does not mean 300% better in combat, it doesn't even generally mean 20% better in combat.

I just showed an example of where it is. A common example.

You said you would only use spirit guardians when surrounded by enemies and in an earlier thread you said you would only use spirit guardians in long combat

Never said that. I said you wouldn't use SG in a 1-2 round combat. combat lasting more than a couple rounds is not "long combat"

9th Level Eldritch Knight

1. Dual Wielder, Light weapons, two weapon fighting, warmagic, Green Flame Blade 10 intelligence:
4d6+2d8+15=38

2. Sword and board Spear, PAM, Warmagic, Dueling, Green Flame Blade with 20 strength and 10 intelligence:
2d6+1d4+2d8+21=39.5

3. Greatsword, GWM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence:
4d6+2d8+18=41

4: Greataxe, GWM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence
3d12+2d8+22=50.5

5. Halberd, GWM, PAM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence:
3d10+1d4+2d8+27=55

That is raw damage with 100% hits and does not consider crits, action surge, magic weapons, GWF, Vex, Topple, or Graze. It does include Nick and Cleave where applicable.


Now show me your 9th level eldritch knight build that is doing "a couple of attacks at 1d8+4".

I said 5th level in my example, not 9th level. This...is not relevant or proves anything. I asked to show the math using 5th level numbers, because that's what I used in my example.

I don't need to show proof. Also show me your citation about 5-7 rounds. I said mine is from my experience, you are saying yours is not from your experience, so show me that.

Yes you do need to show proof. That's how arguments work. If you make a claim, you need to show proof other than "cuz I said so." Do a google search, the answers are there.

Compiled response from various forum and reddit conversations:

• Average/Standard Combat: Usually lasts about 3–5 rounds.
• Easy Combat: Often ends in 1–2 rounds, especially if the party is much more powerful than the enemies.
• Hard/Deadly Combat: Can last 5–7 rounds or longer, as the enemies are designed to be more challenging.
• Boss Fights: Often take 5–10 rounds or even longer, as they are intended to be significant and climactic battles.

Where do you get this from? No 9th level Eldritch Knight is making 2 attacks with a 1d8 weapon, 20 strength is +5 not +4 and an Eldritch Knight uses a cantrip with the attack action.

Again, i said 5th level in my example. No wonder your numbers look so good if you're gonna compare your 9th level against my 5th level examples.

I'll also note you conveniently keep ignoring how SG keeps going. It's not just one round. Split that initial damage the EK isn't doing over several rounds compared to SG if you want to be remotely accurate.

 

[Sacrosanct]

once you can hit everyone in the room, extra size (or range) doesn't help.

And in my experience, Spirit Guardians can hit everyone most of the time. Expanding it might save a Disengage or Dash now and then, but not usually worth the cost IMO.

Extra duration however, turning 1 minute into 1 hour, is going to really help spell slot economy.

Sure. If the extra radius isn’t working for you, extend it an hour for another whole encounter or two. Is that worth one round of attacks by an EK? Or arcane trickster?

 

[mellored]

Sure. If the extra radius isn’t working for you, extend it an hour for another whole encounter or two. Is that worth one round of attacks by an EK? Or arcane trickster?

Do it before battle.

 

[mellored]

How does Prolong stacks with Sorcerer's Extended metamagic?

Can we get 48 hour spells?

 

[ECMO3]

I said 5th level in my example, not 9th level.

Then how does your cleric cast Blade Barrier after your Eldritch Knight takes over concentration? It is actually 11th level not 9th level, or do you admit that idea (SG+Blade Barrier) example is generally a VERY weak move now?

And at 5th level you are using your highest level spell slot for this and the EK would use one of only 3 spell slots he has for the whole day. I'm not doing that as an Eldritch Knight. I will take my 25 damage or so from extra attack

Yes you do need to show proof. That's how arguments work. If you make a claim, you need to show proof other than "cuz I said so."

Except when you say so?

Do a google search, the answers are there.

Compiled response from various forum and reddit conversations:

• Average/Standard Combat: Usually lasts about 3–5 rounds.
• Easy Combat: Often ends in 1–2 rounds, especially if the party is much more powerful than the enemies.
• Hard/Deadly Combat: Can last 5–7 rounds or longer, as the enemies are designed to be more challenging.
• Boss Fights: Often take 5–10 rounds or even longer, as they are intended to be significant and climactic battles.

This is not a citation. Show me those posts, and why don't you use this forum?

Again, i said 5th level in my example.

You said in your first example I replied to that the EK would share concentration so the cleric could cast Blade Barrier.

Do you just admit that is a really weak move now?

 

[Zardnaar]

I am starting a 5-plyaer 1-20 Forgotten Realms campaign in 12 days, we are using everything from HOFR. At least two of us are playing casters..

I will report back on how gamebreaking this is in actual play. I expect it to be not gamebreaking at all.

I'm also starting a new campaign soon. Faerun everything's allowed new books.

Theres dead magic and wild magic zones. And shadow weave. Hmmmn fill your boots.

 

[Zardnaar]

Quik e


I did when I have the number of impacted squares of 15 ft compared to 25 ft radius. They way math works, increasing by 10 ft is not increasing by 66%, but by 3x the impacted area.

No, I am not saying that. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it's situational so it's hard to say if you impact 4 creatures or 6 creatures or 9 creatures. I didn't say it's highly situational that it only occurs in long combats surrounded by enemies. I'll show the math in a second to show that even if it's just a few creatures, it's a far better option.


Show the math


This is just not true at all.

Your own anecdotal experience is not a citation. Please show proof that the typical 5e encounter is less than 3 rounds long, less at higher levels. Everything I could find from others' experiences is 5-7 rounds.


Nope. Let's look at a typical encounter. Encounters like this are common both in my own experience, and in published adventures. The blue is a standard radius SG. The red is an augment with one helper. 5th level PCs. The eldritch knight has 2 attacks per round at 1d8+4 damage (assuming 20 str). Let's assume every hit is successful and every save against SG fails. That EK can either move and attack one hobgoblin for 17 damage.

OR

The EK spends a level 1 spell slot to augment SG. It immediately impacts 2 additional creatures for 13.5 damage each. If the hobgoblins move in to attack, it also impacts more than one a round earlier than they would if we used the blue radius. They would all have to dash in order to be impacted by SG the same time they would if it were blue (which means they give up their attack action). Even if they don't move forward, the cleric can move forward and capture more of them in the 25 ft radius than they could with a 15 ft radius.

That's just on the first round after casting. The next round, the EK can do whatever they would no normally, and the SG keeps damaging opponents at the tune of 13.5 damage each. All of this extra damage at the cost of 17 total points given up by the EK on the first round.

Even if you are extremely conservative and say only two extra hobgoblins are impacted by the increased radius, that's an extra 27 points of damage each round, at the cost of an initial 17 points. Show me the math where this is weaker than just attacking like you claim. Show me the math how casting Tasha's on one monster is better than doing that extra damage to all of them.

And then....SG lasts 10 minutes, so you get to keep using it for the next encounter if you keep moving!

View attachment 421466

Have you played high level 5.5?

You can crunch the math yourself but look at a level 9 fighter and the magic items tables in the DMG. Look for vicious weapons.

Also look at level 11 fighters, Paladins and shillagh plus true strike on an EK using hunters mark.

Also go and have a look at the new twin spell, hold monster and wisdom saves.

You're looking at burst damage in the 100-150 range 250+ comboed with hold spells.

Also see my previous threads about chromatic orb.

Currently running at 13 also done 12, 7, and 1-4.

2 or 3 rounds is fairly typical and I dont even have powergamers.

 

[Zardnaar]

ok. If your goal is to get the most number of squares under your SG to look cool this will be very effective. If your goal is to win the combat efficiently with minimal cost in terms of resources for the party it won't be.

Increasing AOE by 300% does not mean 300% better in combat, it doesn't even generally mean 20% better in combat.



You said you would only use spirit guardians when surrounded by enemies and in an earlier thread you said you would only use spirit guardians in long combat



9th Level Eldritch Knight

1. Dual Wielder, Light weapons, two weapon fighting, warmagic, Green Flame Blade 10 intelligence:
4d6+2d8+15=38

2. Sword and board Spear, PAM, Warmagic, Dueling, Green Flame Blade with 20 strength and 10 intelligence:
2d6+1d4+2d8+21=39.5

3. Greatsword, GWM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence:
4d6+2d8+18=41

4: Greataxe, GWM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence
3d12+2d8+22=50.5

5. Halberd, GWM, PAM, Warmagic, Green Flame Blade, 10 Intelligence:
3d10+1d4+2d8+27=55

That is raw damage with 100% hits and does not consider crits, action surge, magic weapons, GWF, Vex, Topple, or Graze. It does include Nick and Cleave where applicable.


Now show me your 9th level eldritch knight build that is doing "a couple of attacks at 1d8+4".



I don't need to show proof. Also show me your citation about 5-7 rounds. I said mine is from my experience, you are saying yours is not from your experience, so show me that.



Where do you get this from? No 9th level Eldritch Knight is making 2 attacks with a 1d8 weapon, 20 strength is +5 not +4 and an Eldritch Knight uses a cantrip with the attack action.

And guess what, the numbers above are for a 9th level EK. For some reason I thought Blade Barrier was a 5th level spell, it is a 6th level spell, the numbers ranging from 38-55 that I posted above are not even accurate because I should have been using an 11th level EK instead of 9th level. Here are those new numbers for each example rescaling to an 11th level EK:

1. 55.5 damage
2. 57 damage
3. 62 damage
4. 71 damage
5. 74.5 damage



No at 11th level (what I should have been using) it should be well above 50 damage on most builds.

Even with a basic 20 strength, warmagic, no fighting style, no weapon mastery, no feats and no buffs against a single target it would still be 33 damage, nearly twice the number you quoted.

I mean I guess I could pruposely do less damage, just like the Cleric can decide that not all the enemies are affected by Spirit Guardians, but why would they?



Which is WAY WAY less than an EK is going to do with an attack action. It is less than a weak EK will do.

You missed the shillagh, true strike and hex/hunters mark combo.

We've both seen vicious weapon in action and seen level 11+ games.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Then how does your cleric cast Blade Barrier after your Eldritch Knight takes over concentration? It is actually 11th level not 9th level, or do you admit that idea (SG+Blade Barrier) example is generally a VERY weak move now?

Dude, stop trying with the gotcha moments. This isn't one. I used the 5th level example because it was easier to prove the point. A point which you still haven't shown the math on to disprove despite me asking several times.

If we were talking about 11th level, then the SG would be upcast and doing a lot more than 3d8 damage to each creature.

And at 5th level you are using your highest level spell slot for this and the EK would use one of only 3 spell slots he has for the whole day. I'm not doing that as an Eldritch Knight. I will take my 25 damage or so from extra attack

You wouldn't, but lots of people would when they see how clearly it's better for the party.

Except when you say so?



This is not a citation. Show me those posts, and why don't you use this forum?

I didn't just say so. I said where it came from. You still haven't shown any evidence that combat rarely takes more than 2 rounds, less for higher level. You were the one to make that claim originally, remember.

You said in your first example I replied to that the EK would share concentration so the cleric could cast Blade Barrier.

Do you just admit that is a really weak move now?

Wait, wut? No, I didn't. And you still keep ignoring how SG lasts more than one round and keeps on damaging that whole time. You keep forgetting that in your math. It's notable that you keep doing it. Since I keep mentioning it, I can only assume it's intentional at this point.

So unless you can actually prove that combat is as short as you claim, and you can show the math where the damage on one round of attacks is more than all of the damage SG does in total (each round and to all opponents), I think I'm done here. All you seem to be doing is continuing with the strawman "Oh, so you admit your argument is weak!!" And quite frankly, it's a red flag for me to disengage with this conversation.