City building discussions

[Jürgen Hubert]

Rule Zero: Any PC's that own/part-own a city or other such unadventurous/book-keeping heavy/DM-taxing enterprise become NPC's.

No save.

Boo-ring!

The ultimate goal of role-playing is fun. And it looks like the players are having fun - why else would they bother to draw entire maps?

I think it's great to have such enthusiastic players - so I say go with it!

Read up on Niccolo Machiavelli's "Ill Principe" ("The Prince"), and take notes for political adventures - and then you are set!

 

[Bryan Vining]

Some thoughts

Expanding a population from 7,000 to 25,000 should not be a quick enterprise unless the PCs are going to make a massive personal investment. First off, you have to give people a reason to move there. That is, there has to be genuine economic opportunity for them along with a means of getting there (bonded serfs, for example, won't move there no matter how attractive it is). The economy is only so large, and the PCs are going to have to be willing to expand it personally if they want to get a population boom like that.

One thing you mentioned was a vein of gold. That's a good way to attract people. Getting rich quick draws them in. The challenge then is to establish enough of a real economy (i.e., not based on gold) to support 25,000 after the gold is gone.

Now, I'm not saying this can't or shouldn't be done. It sounds like fun, but the PCs had better be prepared to spend the vast majority of their funds on it. Just building the structures required to house 18,000 people is going to take a lot of moola. If each structure costs just 5 gp, which is possibly a reasonable average, you're talking abotu 90.000 gp. However, I think that's unlikely, since you also have to have the raw resources to build 18,000 homes. You can undoubtedly get them, but it won't be cheap. You'll have to bring in wood from forests, often over very long distances, and there may be some elves who won't be happy about seeing that rate of deforestation. Never mind building the larger civic structures that will be required to keep things running.

I certainly haven't worked it out in any detail, but I would guess that for any party to try to expand a city's population from 7,000 to 25,000 in four years would cost them well into the 100's of thounsands of gps, if not better than a million. Why? The economy of a city of 25,000 is significantly larger and different than that of a city of 7,000. If we assume that only 1 in 5 of the population is a worker (the others being spouses, children, elderly, etc), then you have 3600 new workers. If we go by the 1 sp per day rate for a laborer, then you need 131400 gp a year to maintain their wages. However, that 1 sp rate assumes a certain amount of self-sufficiency, which is obtained through farming. Since there won't be any farming going on, I'd double that amount. The money to maintain these wages has to come from somewhere.

Anyway, I could go on about this, but hopefully I've gotten the point across about setting up a believable expansion of population.

Cheers!

 

[Ravellion]

The ultimate goal of role-playing is fun.

You are almost fully right here.

And it looks like the players are having fun - why else would they bother to draw entire maps?

But what about the DM? He should have fun as well, and perhaps this is agianst his personal preference of DM'ing.

Anyway, sorry for the Hijack, just wanted to share my opinion on this.

Rav

 

[Tsyr]

You are almost fully right here.

But what about the DM? He should have fun as well, and perhaps this is agianst his personal preference of DM'ing.

Anyway, sorry for the Hijack, just wanted to share my opinion on this.

Rav

Yes, but the DMs fun is no more important than that of the players. If the DM doesn't like something, fine, but remember that the players might. And if you just start finding ways to negate the things the players find fun, your not being, IMHO, a very good DM. If you don't like it, step down if you must, don't mess with your players though.

Thats my view, anyhow.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

But what about the DM? He should have fun as well, and perhaps this is agianst his personal preference of DM'ing.

Perhaps... but maybe he should reconsider and try out something new in this case.

I mean, what he describes sounds like my dream scenario for GMing: He has a bunch of players who are willing to do all his work for him!

No more endless map drawing - the players do that, and all the DM needs to do is make a few revisions from time to time. The PCs have an agenda that they are highly motivated about - just throw a few wrenches into their plans now and then, and the adventures write themselves!

More fun for less work - in my opinion, DMing doesn't get any better than this.

 

[Ravellion]

Yes, but the DMs fun is no more important than that of the players. If the DM doesn't like something, fine, but remember that the players might. And if you just start finding ways to negate the things the players find fun, your not being, IMHO, a very good DM. If you don't like it, step down if you must, don't mess with your players though.

Thats my view, anyhow.

Aaargh! Must resist highjack! must resist arguing with honourable Tsyr!

Will save DC5. Roll 10-6= 4 -->fail. (insomnia reduces will save considerably)

I once tried to cater to my players and provide a campaign which I was not really comfortable with. Strangely enough, it failed horribly . In fact, I think any campaign in which one person (be he DM or player) is not having or hardly having fun, is doomed to fail if the attendance of said person is required due to certain out of game reasons (he has the key to the house, or he is the only one willing to DM etc).

In fact, I am willing to argue that the worst campaign possible is one in where the DM has no fun, but not in this thread. It is a moot point anyway, since Sidran has said he does like to play in the city building campaign. Nevertheless, I don't think the DM should "negate the things the players find fun" either. But the players should swallow a certain DM hardhandedness in certain aspects (such as campaign world and flavour IMO, ao), since the players should also recognise that even though they might find aspect A 100% fun, and aspect B only 80% fun, if the DM finds aspect A 20% fun and Aspect B 90% fun, it might be wise to focus (ie. not to all exclusion) on aspect B.

Well, it's 14:10 here, I am going to catch some sleep, for some reason I couldn't do that this night ...

Rav

 

[Fenes 2]

The ultimate goal of role-playing is fun.

Amen!

I still wonder how many people seem to have trouble accepting that little tidbit, or accepting that different people have fun differently (Fortunately not on these boards.) Some are almost fanatically insisting that their way to roleplay is THE right or proper way.

Back on topic: If the players have started to drive the story, then by all means go with it - as long as you have fun doing it. IMC, I always strive to get the PCs "settled in" somewhere - i.e. integrated in a community, so that they have bonds to the NPCs. It gives the PC not only a base of operations, but also a source of plot hooks and options. A big part of my campaigns does not center on the adventure of the day, but on the goals, schemes and sidetrecks of the PCs and NCPs.

IMHO, the trick is to not gloss over the "building aspects", but to use them for adventures. Perhaps the PCs need an expert weaponsmith for their keep, and if they do not want to settle for a commoner with a sledgehammer, then they have to persuade the best weaponsmith in the vicinity to join their community. And even if they manage that - perhaps by helping him construct the "ultimate sword" for his liege so that he may leave his service, he might get captured by a rival on his way to the PCs, triggering another adventure.
Digging for a well might unearth a tunnel to the underdark, or a hidden treasure, or a corpse with regal trappings. The PCs might be expected to give grand receptions for their neighbours, ending up in a fierce "entertainment competition". And while all this is going on the PCs might still get called to defeat a roaming monster - only this time it is their land that gets devastated by the beast - or serve the king, or defend themselves against a plot by a jealous noble.
And then are the "joys of command" - how to settle conflicts between servants, to take responsability for the unfortunate incident involving a messenger to the king and a supsicious guard patrol of the PC's keep etc.

IME, getting settled in makes the PC's life more adventurous than just roaming the countryside, looking for trouble, and ready to leave for the next country if said trouble gets too big.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Back on topic: If the players have started to drive the story, then by all means go with it - as long as you have fun doing it. IMC, I always strive to get the PCs "settled in" somewhere - i.e. integrated in a community, so that they have bonds to the NPCs. It gives the PC not only a base of operations, but also a source of plot hooks and options. A big part of my campaigns does not center on the adventure of the day, but on the goals, schemes and sidetrecks of the PCs and NCPs.

Some of the best advice on this I read recently was in Nobilis, where the PCs (cosmic entities that each represent one aspect of nature) get to build their own private realm together...

In fact, the GMing advice in Nobilis is useful for any non hack-and-slash adventures!

(Not that there is anything wrong with hack'n'slash, of course. But hack'n'slash usually involves writing down too many monster stats - an activity on which I, as a lazy GM, frown upon.)

 

[Fenes 2]

Some of the best advice on this I read recently was in Nobilis, where the PCs (cosmic entities that each represent one aspect of nature) get to build their own private realm together...

In fact, the GMing advice in Nobilis is useful for any non hack-and-slash adventures!

(Not that there is anything wrong with hack'n'slash, of course. But hack'n'slash usually involves writing down too many monster stats - an activity on which I, as a lazy GM, frown upon.)

Hmmm... I might have to check this out. Thanks for the tip.

 

[jasper]

Ice age and Snow
Can you give more information here? How much snowfall per year? Or a sample likes Maine, North Dakota etc.

The dome. Very interesting possibilities here. If you near an ice age, where are you getting all these leaves? You may want to look up thatch roofing with a google search.

The copper moat adventure. Just some ideas for adventures.
First finding the copper vein big enough to do this.
Evil sorcerer with his pets rust monsters could cause trouble.
The tunneling requiring maintenance here to the pipes. Gee Bob it was a nice market place till in fell into the dwarf made swamp.
Moat water. Yew yew icky poo. That stinks. Leaking pipes smell. Or clogs in the system. Who you going call? The Paladin Plumbers “We do a good job!”
How is this furnace is going to stoked? With what coal, charcoal, etc? How soon with all this tunneling cause the city to cave in. Yes sir e bob come to the sunken city of Chicago. If charcoal, where did all the trees go?
Heated streets cause permafrost to thaw resulting in sunken city again.
Broadway and 7 th avenue with out heat for x days result in ice on the road plus potholes.

Recruitment and city life
You state the druid was needed. Now you need the following
Town guard. Loyal to you or mercs.
Temples who prays to what?
Laws. What are they?
Taxes. Or are they Billy Gates and can afford to pay for everything.
Sewer system a stinking job but who builds it, maintains and keeps it clean? Time to call the Paladin Plumbers.
Schools, magic, fighting, and other class skills.
Who dyes first? Or where does the tanner go and his shop.
Well, a deep subject and how clean is you water.
Meat market. No not the nightlife one. What are the meat animals in the location?
How green is your green grocer? And how much can he grow in a season?
Pest control pigeons, rats, and adventurers. Who handles them?
Beer and booze. Who makes them and sells them.
Bring out your dead! And bury them where?
Who that knocking on your door? Alice the Angry Apple women upset because the kids have stolen her Sour Granny. Or how do you handle complains.
Courts calling all courts. Who judges whom?
Materials for construction. Who finds it, mines, etc?
Careless construction. Who builds what where etc.

The neighbors
Those white dragons.
Who claims this land? Nanook of the North, Alice the Alaskan, or Bob the Ice Barbarian.
Bob the Ice Barbarian and tribe are upset about the annual caribou run being disrupted.
The underdark. Nice guys or things in your basement.
Gypsies, tramps and thieves. A song or a problem.


Note these are just adventure ideas. Spring them slowly on your players.