Clarification on disrupting a spellcaster's spell

[KarinsDad]

Actually, I think spell casters got it pretty easy.

Combatant types are generally relegated to two possible tasks: attack for damage, grapple.

Yeah, they have knockdown or trip or a variety of other things, but most of those are variants on the two above for all intents and purposes: you either try to damage opponents, or you try to put them in an inferior combat position.

Spell casters, however, can do amazing things: Flying, Healing, Protective Magic, Teleporting, putting up Walls to segregate combat, etc.

And, with taking the Concentration skill every level, it is extremely difficult to disrupt one of their spells.

We once had a long similar discussion concerning a Cleric who moved 10 feet in order to coerce the AoO of a Giant, then he moved back and healed a downed character.

But, the following rule would, IMO, be a good one:

Any damage done on the casters initiative (i.e. not someone else's initiative in the same round, but merely the casters) would result in a concentration check to get a spell cast (multiple concentration checks if he is damaged multiple times, e.g. an AoO and for casting the spell).

I think it is way too easy in the chaos of combat to do whatever you want with spells for the most part. JMO.

 

[mikebr99]

But, the following rule would, IMO, be a good one:

Any damage done on the casters initiative (i.e. not someone else's initiative in the same round, but merely the casters) would result in a concentration check to get a spell cast (multiple concentration checks if he is damaged multiple times, e.g. an AoO and for casting the spell).

I think it is way too easy in the chaos of combat to do whatever you want with spells for the most part. JMO.

Hey KD...
I agree that it is easy to get spells off in 3e... but because most of the casting is done before combat, during preparation. There isn't much left to disrupt... hence very little chance TO disrupt. A std. spell is taking up about 3 second of time... and that includes geting the material components out of the pouch.

And there isn't much concentration needed (since most of casting work is done during prep time) so damage not taken during actual casting doesn't count...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I happen to play the sorcerer in mypetrock's campaign. When fully prepared for combat, this character has AC 32. Archers are more likely to hit the guys in full plate.

That's not bad for level 12, though my bladesinger, when he was level 12, had AC 36 in his best times (AC 43 if fighting defensively)

To get to the point: first, the archers don't know that they are more likely to hit your armored friend, they probably see you as the greater threat but the easier target, as wizards tend to fall after a couple of arrows, and their spellcasting will possibly cease even after the first attack!. Then consider that they could have a spellcaster of their own who dispells your spells, bringing you back to AC 21. And if they get around behind your shield, you'll also only have AC 25. Also, they could have an attack bonus of around +20 and that would mean they hit you often enough.


@Pielorinho: Shield now provides a +7 cover bonus to AC. It doesn't grant 3/4-cover anymore (so no +3 to ref saves, no negation of AoO)

@KarinsDad: The rule with damage in your initiative sounds good.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hey KD...
I agree that it is easy to get spells off in 3e... but because most of the casting is done before combat, during preparation. There isn't much left to disrupt... hence very little chance TO disrupt. A std. spell is taking up about 3 second of time... and that includes geting the material components out of the pouch.

And there isn't much concentration needed (since most of casting work is done during prep time) so damage not taken during actual casting doesn't count...

I think this is rationalization semantics on your part.

A lot of relatively minor "during casting" things force a Concentration check, but getting hit for 40 points of damage an instant before does not. That's just a silly rule. IMO.

"Spell: If the character is affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell, the character must make a Concentration check or lose the spell being cast. If the spell affecting the character deals damage, the DC of the Concentration check is 10 + points of damage + the level of the spell the character is casting. If the spell interferes with the character or distracts the character in some other way, the DC is the spell's saving throw DC + the level of the spell the character is casting. For spells with no saving throw, it's the DC that the spell's saving throw would have if it did allow a saving throw."

"Vigorous Motion: If the character is riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, the character must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell the character is casting) or lose the spell."

"Casting Defensively: If the character wants to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, the character needs to dodge and weave. The character must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell the character is casting) to succeed. The character loses the spell if the character fails."


"To cast a spell, the character must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, the character must concentrate to cast a spell-and it's hard to concentrate in the heat of battle. (See below for details.)"

Hardly.

 

[KarinsDad]

@KarinsDad: The rule with damage in your initiative sounds good.

Thanks.

Now, if I could only get my players to allow it as a house rule.

 

[IanB]

I can give you that same sorcerer at 5th level, although they'll be specialized in defense.

Start with a halfling with a 16-point Dex (6 points in a point-buy, not unreasonable). Assume a decent roll when casting Cat's grace.

Size +1 (size)
Natural Dex +3 (dodge)
Mage armor +4 (armor)
Cat's grace +2 (dodge)
Shield +7 (cover? whatever it's been errataed to)
Protection from evil +2 (deflection)
Haste +4 (haste)
=AC 33
Daniel

You can't get haste until level 6 as a sorcerer.

 

[AuraSeer]

My point is that spellcasters don't "tend to fall after a couple of arrows". Sure they can't wear armor, but any smart mage will have a high AC anyway via defensive items and spells. Once you account for range penalties for being (potentially) 400' above the battle, not to mention Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin and whatnot, he has practically nothing to fear from ordinary attackers. An archer who thinks him a soft target will be rudely surprised.

Also, spellcasting will certainly not "cease after the first attack". Even if the archer readies his attack, and hits, and does damage, and triggers a Concentration check, and the check fails, that only spoils one spell. The mage can go on and cast something else next round (or even this round, if he's hasted).

If you bring in your own caster to dispel his protections, that's a whole other story. You might as well not bother dispelling, and just chuck a Hold or a Dominate or some damaging spells of your own. Spellcaster vs. spellcaster is entirely different from spellcaster vs. conventional troops.

[Edited for typos]

 

[Pielorinho]

You can't get haste until level 6 as a sorcerer.

D'oh! Good point -- so make my example a level 6 sorceror or a level 5 wizard.

Nice catch!
Daniel

 

[mikebr99]

I think this is rationalization semantics on your part.

You may be right...

A lot of relatively minor "during casting" things force a Concentration check, but getting hit for 40 points of damage an instant before does not. That's just a silly rule. IMO.

I agree with you... But I too would have a hard time selling this to my party members.

Have you considered that damage (or any distraction) that happens during his round, but before is only half as effective? And then the distraction that happens during casting is at normal effectiveness... just a thought.

"Spell: If the character is affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell, the character must make a Concentration check or lose the spell being cast. If the spell affecting the character deals damage, the DC of the Concentration check is 10 + points of damage + the level of the spell the character is casting. If the spell interferes with the character or distracts the character in some other way, the DC is the spell's saving throw DC + the level of the spell the character is casting. For spells with no saving throw, it's the DC that the spell's saving throw would have if it did allow a saving throw."

"Vigorous Motion: If the character is riding on a moving mount, taking a bouncy ride in a wagon, on a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a storm-tossed ship, or simply being jostled in a similar fashion, the character must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell the character is casting) or lose the spell."

"Casting Defensively: If the character wants to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, the character needs to dodge and weave. The character must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell the character is casting) to succeed. The character loses the spell if the character fails."


"To cast a spell, the character must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, the character must concentrate to cast a spell-and it's hard to concentrate in the heat of battle. (See below for details.)"

Yeah... all in 3 seconds. Meaning.. not alot of this stuff is actually happening if you have to do all three (the components I mean).

 

[mikebr99]

My point is that spellcasters don't "tend to fall after a couple of arrows". Sure they can't wear armor, but any smart mage will have a high AC anyway via defensive items and spells. Once you account for range penalties for being (potentially) 400' above the battle, not to mention Protection from Arrows and Stoneskin and whatnot, he has practically nothing to fear from ordinary attackers. An archer who thinks him a soft target will be rudely surprised.

Also, spellcasting will certainly not "cease after the first attack". Even if the archer readies his attack, and hits, and does damage, and triggers a Concentration check, and the check fails, that only spoils one spell. The mage can go on and cast something else next round (or even this round, if he's hasted).

If you bring in your own caster to dispel his protections, that's a whole other story. You might as well not bother dispelling, and just chuck a Hold or a Dominate or some damaging spells of your own. Spellcaster vs. spellcaster is entirely different from spellcaster vs. conventional troops.

[Edited for typos]

How high a level of spellcaster are you by buffing and defending yourself in this way and still have spells left in order to be effective for the long haul during combat?