Clarification on Push needed

[Hypersmurf]

And even if I didn't, it's fairly safe to assume that given that push, pull and slide are all under the one banner of forced movement, that the DM has already adjudicated on slide if he's adjudicated on push.

Given that Push, Pull, and Slide are all under the one banner of forced movement, it's reasonable to assume that a ruling regarding Push will also apply to Slide in similar fashion... and unreasonable to assume that it will not. Except in the specific cases where the rules draw a distinction... which is that Push is restricted to movement away, while Slide has no restriction on direction.

If it said under slide specifically that the attacker causing the sliding effect chooses exactly where the target moves, that absolutely nothing to do with push.

It doesn't say that specifically under Slide. So we're forced to either assume that with Slide (and forced movement in general) the attacker chooses exactly where the target moves; or we're forced to assume that with Slide (and forced movement in general) the target chooses exactly where the target moves.

While one can make arguments that Push permits the target to determine where he moves (subject to the direction restriction - that is, must be away from the attacker), one must also apply the same arguments to the other forms of forced movement... that is, that Slide permits the target to determine where he moves (subject to the direction restriction - that is, any direction at all).

There's no reasonable way to read the rules such that the attacker determines the movement for a Slide, but the target determines the movement for a Push. It's only reasonable to assume that both are adjudicated similarly... and since allowing the target to choose his movement for a Slide is nonsensical, we're left with the attacker choosing the movement for all forms of forced movement.

-Hyp.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

Which helps not one iota.

I asked a very specific question. If the DM or I had an issue with how slide works, then I would've mentioned it. And even if I didn't, it's fairly safe to assume that given that push, pull and slide are all under the one banner of forced movement, that the DM has already adjudicated on slide if he's adjudicated on push.

As it stands, slide is utterly irrelevant to the question asked and the issue at hand, even if you used circuitous logic required to associate the question with it, it's still completely unrelated to the answer.

If it said under slide specifically that the attacker causing the sliding effect chooses exactly where the target moves, that absolutely nothing to do with push.

So again, I ask, where was it that I mentioned slide at all in my original post?

Generally when a player asks for clarification on a ruling his DM makes it's because they disagree, and the player is looking for some ammo. But since that seems to not be the case, here's a little argument for you.

First, to answer your question, you did not mention slide in your first post. However, I think that's a defect of your first post, and not of the following argument.

So look at the directions for push and slide.

Push: When you push a creature, each square you move it must place it farther away from you.

Slide: When you slide a creature, there's no restriction on the direction you can move it.

We can assume that "you" in this context refers to the in game character that is performing the action which contains the keywords "push X" or "slide X". That is, "you" does not refer to the player or the DM, but rather to an in-game concept.

Both entries contain the phrase like "you move it", with "it" referring to the creature being push or slid.

With your DM's interpretation that the creature can choose which direction it moves, the meaning of those clauses changes to "it moves", giving us:

Push: When you push a creature, each square it moves must place i farther away from you. You would agree that this is an accurate depiction of your DM's current ruling, yes? This brings us to the analogous redefinition of slide.

Slide: When you slide a creature, there's no restriction on the direction it moves.

This is clearly against the intention of the slide rules and the powers that use slide. There is no point in giving an enemy a free shift. Since we have reached a point where we have an absurdity in the rules, one of our assumptions must be incorrect. The only assumption that is questionable is the one that you can replace "you move it" to "it moves". Thus that assumption is incorrect, and your DM's current ruling is wrong.

This has been an argument via reductio ad absurdum, or proof by contradiction as it's sometimes known. Thanks for your time.

 

[SteveC]

Actually you did ask about pulling and sliding, since the rules for push are covered in a section on page 285, and they're all described in the same section, so the rules that apply to one apply to all of them. What's the general rule?

Certain powers and effects allow you to pull, push, or slide a target. ... Whether you’re pulling, pushing, or sliding a target, certain rules govern all forced movement.

The key word here is you. You will see it throughout the entire section, and it means you the person forcing the movement. I frankly can't understand where the argument is from the other side ... perhaps you should ask your GM how he interprets the rule as being anything but the character causing the effect gets to choose.

--Steve

 

[Kzach]

Ok... fine. Let me be clear then.

The DM has ruled that slide allows the player to choose wherever the target goes.

The DM has ruled that push only works in the exact direction that opposes the attacker.

There is nothing to say otherwise.

Yes, I agree that the intent of the wording is that YOU do the moving. But it only says you MOVE it, it does not specifically say you choose WHERE it moves, only that it moves away from you.

I know it's a niggling thing, but that's why I'm asking for something specific, a reputable source of rules information or a quote or something relatively official to answer in my favour.

To me, bringing slide into the argument and not only that, insisting that I answer, does nothing to help and only complicates an issue and further CREATES an argument that wasn't a part of the discussion in the first place. The DM has already resolved the rule. I don't want to go to him with my opinion, I want to go to him with fact.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

Ok... fine. Let me be clear then.

The DM has ruled that slide allows the player to choose wherever the target goes.

The DM has ruled that push only works in the exact direction that opposes the attacker.

There is nothing to say otherwise.

Yes, I agree that the intent of the wording is that YOU do the moving. But it only says you MOVE it, it does not specifically say you choose WHERE it moves, only that it moves away from you.

I know it's a niggling thing, but that's why I'm asking for something specific, a reputable source of rules information or a quote or something relatively official to answer in my favour.

To me, bringing slide into the argument and not only that, insisting that I answer, does nothing to help and only complicates an issue and further CREATES an argument that wasn't a part of the discussion in the first place. The DM has already resolved the rule. I don't want to go to him with my opinion, I want to go to him with fact.

That's why I gave you logic. It's good at finding fact. Also, I don't really insist that you answer. I'm cool with you not posting. Sorry if I implied otherwise! I wouldn't want you to feel like I'm forcing you to answer.

 

[Kzach]

Me: "Is white white?"
Poster 1: "No, blue is red."
Me: "I asked about white, not blue."
Poster 2: "Yes, but blue is still red."
Me: "But what is white?"
Poster 3: "Actually, blue is orange."
Me: :suicide:

 

[thatdarnedbob]

Me: "Is white white?"
Poster 1: "No, blue is red."
Me: "I asked about white, not blue."
Poster 2: "Yes, but blue is still red."
Me: "But what is white?"
Poster 3: "Actually, blue is orange."
Me: :suicide:

You: Does white possess quality A?
Me: *Lots of work proving from first principles that white does in fact possess quality A*
You: Why are you using that in your argument? It wasn't in the original question. :suicide:
Me: Thank you.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The DM has ruled that slide allows the player to choose wherever the target goes.

The DM has ruled that push only works in the exact direction that opposes the attacker.

There is nothing to say otherwise.

The rule tells us what the restriction on the direction of a Push is - each square must be farther from you. Your DM has added an additional restriction - each square must be farther from you, in a specific direction.

There are rules that govern forced movement; he has added one that is not there.

Which is, naturally, his prerogative as DM... but the restriction he is imposing is not one that the rules impose.

-Hyp.

 

[Kzach]

The rule tells us what the restriction on the direction of a Push is - each square must be farther from you. Your DM has added an additional restriction - each square must be farther from you, in a specific direction.

There are rules that govern forced movement; he has added one that is not there.

Which is, naturally, his prerogative as DM... but the restriction he is imposing is not one that the rules impose.

-Hyp.

Ok.

I get that.

But you have to concede that the opposite is also true; it doesn't state that you choose the direction.

Yes, it is implied. Yes, I think it's fairly obviously and strongly implied. Yes, slide may very well operate under the same implication.

What I was looking for, which I stated in the original post, was some verification of this from a reputable source. I restated this and elaborated on it, that I was looking for some official adjudication on this.

The reason being is that I don't want to have a 'he said/she said' argument with the DM. In all liklihood, he'll agree with me after I point out a few things. He made a snap judgement for the game and I want to clarify outside of the game the ruling for all of us. But at the same time, I don't want to go to him and just say, "Well, duh, it's obvious..."

That is kinda insulting. I know I, as a DM, would hate it if a player said, "Well everybody else thinks you're wrong!" I am trying avoid conflict with the DM and the group by finding something solid and concrete I can point to and say, "Oh yeah, btw, that push thing, I found this official ruling on it."

Can you therefore understand the frustration I'm having of getting replies like, "Slide is like this, so push must be like that!" That is heresay. Going to my DM with that is as useful as pointing out the text for Push. The argument CAN go either way, and so therefore creates an unnecessary complication to the issue.

But obviously there is nothing concrete. I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time and getting annoyed at people in the thread. That's not what I wanted.

 

[Dalzig]

Talking about a rule is considered conflict? That's um... yeah.

Don't tell the DM that they're wrong... Ask how they came to that conclusion. Ask why Slide is different than Push/Pull, even though they follow the same rules except for direction.

The strangest thing about the ruling is that slide is any different than push/pull.

If you really feel the need for an 'official ruling' then e-mail Customer Service about the question.