Level Up (A5E) Clarifications on Strongholds and Followers

[Sword of Spirit]

As far as the numbers go, at a luxurious restaurant, the entire place might be 2000 square feet, of which a little less than half is probably the kitchen. At the most fabulous of restaurants, patrons are given near-constant attention and at a restaurant of this size, there would probably be 13-16 tables, depending on the size they choose. If each table gets its own server to provide the utmost dining experience to its customers, that gives 13-16 staff already.

Drawing on personal experience because I work in a pretty busy commercial kitchen, I would consider us “fully staffed” at 10-12 employees when we are at our busiest.

I personally find the 1 staff per 100 square feet more than reasonable

I not sure about that many tables in a luxurious 800 foot dining area (that‘s taking out a little space for restrooms and an entrance area).

Could you provide a floor plan? I’m the kind of person who gets out a tape measure to help me visualize a folding boat, and 40’ x 40’ definitely doesn‘t feel like it would fit a luxurious dining area with 13 to 16 tables and space to walk around without bumping into your neighboring tables.

As far as the comparisons of 100 square feet being a typical modern bedroom size, that‘s fine, but unless the entire stronghold is bedrooms people are going to be more packed than that (and will have much more cramped sleeping quarters). Strongholds will have a variety of storerooms and other utility areas that are presumably included in the square footage, but aren‘t what we think of when we think of the area. Just look at the restauraunt example—we have to subtract the coat room and entrance areas and restrooms as well as the kitchen before we can look at how many square feet those tables actually have to work with.

I think this is the sort of thing where you really need sample maps of these strongholds so it can be seen how this is all supposed to work. I think we will find that it doesn’t work well for many types of strongholds, even if we assume (as we should) that not everyone is on duty at once (though depending on the type of stronghold, even those not on duty might be present most of the time).

 

[lichmaster]

Where have I used either of those terms?

Here:

They’re not the same — 10 ft squared is 10x10=100 square feet, not 10 square feet.

If you do 10 ft squared = 10ftx10ft, you should write it as (10ft)^2. I always wrote 10ft^2, which is different, because the 10 doesn't get squared. It's not about different geometry or units of measure, but how it's actually written that makes it different. In all the posts, I wrote precisely 10ft^2 of 100f^2 because I meant 10ft^2 or 100ft^2, not (10ft)^2 or (100ft)^2.

Besides, my general question is if the amount of staff as 1 every 2x2 on a battlemap is intentional for a luxurious dwelling, because it seems a bit packed for me. That's all.

 

[Morrus]

Here:

If you do 10 ft squared = 10ftx10ft, you should write it as (10ft)^2. I always wrote 10ft^2, which is different, because the 10 doesn't get squared. It's not about different geometry or units of measure, but how it's actually written that makes it different. In all the posts, I wrote precisely 10ft^2 of 100f^2 because I meant 10ft^2 or 100ft^2, not (10ft)^2 or (100ft)^2.

Besides, my general question is if the amount of staff as 1 every 2x2 on a battlemap is intentional for a luxurious dwelling, because it seems a bit packed for me. That's all.

Here:

If you do 10 ft squared = 10ftx10ft, you should write it as (10ft)^2. I always wrote 10ft^2, which is different, because the 10 doesn't get squared. It's not about different geometry or units of measure, but how it's actually written that makes it different. In all the posts, I wrote precisely 10ft^2 of 100f^2 because I meant 10ft^2 or 100ft^2, not (10ft)^2 or (100ft)^2.

Besides, my general question is if the amount of staff as 1 every 2x2 on a battlemap is intentional for a luxurious dwelling, because it seems a bit packed for me. That's all.

We don’t say either in the book, or in this thread. Neither has mathematical notation in it. We use the terms ‘square feet’ and ‘feet squared’ with their normal English usage.

 

[jcbmln]

We don’t say either in the book, or in this thread. Neither has mathematical notation in it. We use the terms ‘square feet’ and ‘feet squared’ with their normal English usage.

I think the main point of confusion (at least for me) comes trom this line in your original reply to this thread:

I'd have to check, but I'll bet that supposed to be ft-squared not square feet.

So the question is, is it actually 1 staff per square feet as the Adventuring Guide says or is that a typo and should it be 1 per 100 feet squared?

 

[Morrus]

I think the main point of confusion (at least for me) comes trom this line in your original reply to this thread:


So the question is, is it actually 1 staff per square feet as the Adventuring Guide says or is that a typo and should it be 1 per 100 feet squared?

Yes I understand the question. As I said, I don’t know the answer offhand but we’ll make sure that the final book is correct which whichever way.

 

[WaltyCole]

I'm just going to throw this out there as well. A lot of people have brought up what feels "luxurious" in terms of strongholds that bear the requirement to be "luxurious" has anyone considered that it might just be a costing system for tools and equipment? Like, a workshop is going to require a lot more than a camp. A smithy for instance needs anvils, a forge multiple specialized tools. It may not be about feeling your in the lap of luxury but rather that equipment cost a lot more.

Places with a lot of time sensitive tasks take more people.

But at the same time, I mean, why is this a big argument. If you just want a lab with just the PC researching, well, then it just has zero workers.

 

[jcbmln]

But at the same time, I mean, why is this a big argument. If you just want a lab with just the PC researching, well, then it just has zero workers.

Well, staff size does have a functional purpose in granting you extra followers (and determining garrison size if that applies to your stronghold), so in that regard the wording is important.

Because of that, while I understand @lichmaster's concerns, I personally hope the wording is correct as is.

 

[tetrasodium]

I not sure about that many tables in a luxurious 800 foot dining area (that‘s taking out a little space for restrooms and an entrance area).

Could you provide a floor plan? I’m the kind of person who gets out a tape measure to help me visualize a folding boat, and 40’ x 40’ definitely doesn‘t feel like it would fit a luxurious dining area with 13 to 16 tables and space to walk around without bumping into your neighboring tables.

As far as the comparisons of 100 square feet being a typical modern bedroom size, that‘s fine, but unless the entire stronghold is bedrooms people are going to be more packed than that (and will have much more cramped sleeping quarters). Strongholds will have a variety of storerooms and other utility areas that are presumably included in the square footage, but aren‘t what we think of when we think of the area. Just look at the restauraunt example—we have to subtract the coat room and entrance areas and restrooms as well as the kitchen before we can look at how many square feet those tables actually have to work with.

I think this is the sort of thing where you really need sample maps of these strongholds so it can be seen how this is all supposed to work. I think we will find that it doesn’t work well for many types of strongholds, even if we assume (as we should) that not everyone is on duty at once (though depending on the type of stronghold, even those not on duty might be present most of the time).

Square footage includes more than just the space inside the walls. Start looking into chain restaurants & you will notice that they often include things like the parking lot too. The average denny's is around 3600-5000sqft.. has about 50 employees.. and seats around 75-164 diners as an example. That's just the people who work in that physical restaurant & doesn't include the people who work in manufacturing production & distribution of whatever premade/premixed stuff they use in the kitchen.

With computers electrification & even things like steam powered mechanics the staffing needed for things to run went down dramatically. magic & enchanted items could perform some of that, but even a multi-mage hand cranked cast iron meat grinder is light years from this

 

[lichmaster]

The average denny's is around 3600-5000sqft.. has about 50 employees.. and seats around 75-164 diners as an example.

I'm not familiar with the chain, would you classify it as a "Luxury" venue?

I do understand that all this is an abstraction, a simplification and a gamification of something way more complex.
In gaming terms, a stronghold is a feat (possibly an ASI too) that can be purchased and personalized with in game money. This was clearly stated time ago by @Morrus too.
Through a stronghold you may also gain prestige and followers. You gain followers when you have enough staff.
Staff is a function of the money spent: it linearly depends on the size of the venue, and on a multiplier related to the overall "quality" of the venue. The quality of the venue is itself a multiplier on the total cost of the venue. That's it.

Now I do like and appreciate the overall simplicity of it, simply put I'm not sure I like the outcome in terms of "feel": 1 person every 2x2 is a bit too much for me for a "Luxury" venue, especially if it's for every point in the venue, not just in the kitchens or other labor intensive area.

To be clear: this is a personal preference. I wanted to be sure I understood the rules as written before deciding if I need to tweak a bit those numbers. The overall effect I intend to obtain is to not change the gold per follower cost, but to change the multipliers so that I don't end up with a similar staff density. May not even be worth it at the end: I may use the computations as written, get the right number of followers, and decide a posteriori that instead of needing 100 staff per 1 follower, 20 or 50 might be enough, so then the venue narratively has a density of staff that I'm more comfortable with

 

[Vampersan]

To be clear: this is a personal preference. I wanted to be sure I understood the rules as written before deciding if I need to tweak a bit those numbers. The overall effect I intend to obtain is to not change the gold per follower cost, but to change the multipliers so that I don't end up with a similar staff density. May not even be worth it at the end: I may use the computations as written, get the right number of followers, and decide a posteriori that instead of needing 100 staff per 1 follower, 20 or 50 might be enough, so then the venue narratively has a density of staff that I'm more comfortable with

I think I understand what you're saying, as I've been looking at the follower to square footage ratio myself. I agree that the number of staff granted at each quality level feels a bit off, but luckily I think simply multiplying the square footage by a factor of 2 largely fixes the feeling of being overcrowded.

So, it would look like this instead:

Frugal = 1 staff per 2,000sqft. (Formerly 1,000)
Average = 1 staff per 1,000sqft. (Formerly 500)
Luxurious = 1 staff per 200sqft. (Formerly 100)
Legendary = 1 staff per 200sqft (Formerly 100)

Thus with a 2,500sqft stronghold (the average size of a home in the U.S.), the number of staff at each quality level would be:

Frugal: 1
Average: 2
Luxurious: 12
Legendary: 12

If there's a garrison, then you also get:

Frugal: 0 soldiers
Average: 1 soldier
Luxurious: 6 soldiers
Legendary: 6 soldiers

Which feels about right, at least for my preferences. One servant definitely feels frugal, and two feels like a good amount for an average stronghold of that size (and possibly a live-in "bodyguard" with the garrison option). Getting up to luxurious and legendary nets you 12 staff, and possibly a small security team with a garrison, for a total of 18 people living in or around your stronghold.

That works out to about one person per 138sqft at the luxurious and legendary tiers (including yourself), which is about a bedroom area for each person. While that may sound a little bit crowded still, I believe it's more comfortable and believable than one person per 65sqft feet (about the size of a guest bathroom) offered by the rules as they are currently written.

You by no means have to make this change, and you may find a different multiplication factor (maybe x3?) suits your game better. I just wanted to offer a tweak that seemed reasonable to me.

At any rate, I think we all have tremendous respect for the designers and the time they put in to crafting a stronghold system in the first place. I also think it's good that we as a forum of fans are analyzing the system and offering good-faith critique. Even if the official rules do not change, we can still adapt them to our own liking with what seems like very minor adjustments.