D&D 5E Class bloat without multiclassing?

The organic fighter in question was low-level. I would think that pulling concerns like whether you'd ever pull down 5th level spells would be more of a 20-level-build-in-advance 3.x/PF CharOp thing, which'd also blow the whole 'organic' thing out of the water. I mean, if you dismissed EK at 3rd, because of a concern 9+ levels down the road.
Lotta assumptions made of, and characteristics being given to, this player who doesn't even exist. My heads starting to spin trying to read this imaginary guy's mind. How 'bout yours?

That's a pretty big 'just.' The Wizard's spell list has more unique (wizard-only) spells than that of any other primary caster, and the wizard is all about casting, so that's a lot of it's identity. And the other issues don't seem like not-wizard, so much as lesser-wizard.
Yeah. And how much of that "spell list [that] has more unique (wizard-only) spells" is accessible by the EK? How many of those "unique (wizard-only) spells" are available to the EK? Even *counting* the few times they are allowed to wander away from their restriction to abjuration and evocation only?

Much lesser, sure, but then the EK is also a very capable fighter. It just seems like an obvious option for a fighter with some arcane training.

Now, if the EK only had 16 spells on his list, and they were all 1st level, and only 3 of them were on the wizard's list, then it might start to look not much like a wizard, even a much lesser wizard.
So what other similarities do they share? Wizards and EKs? Besides referring to the same list (even though the latter doesn't really get the same list, just a tiny portion of it)? What else can you point to showing how they are related? Like, at all.

It sounds like the EK, because it represents a commitment of sorts that must be made at 3rd level, and can't be un-done or doubled-down on, isn't 'organic' the way 3.x style MCing is. The Fighter 4 who takes one of wizard could take the next 6 levels as wizard, or never take a wizard level again, or take a level of rouge, depending on the experiences he has going forward.
I guess I can see that.
Or, <gasp>, he could take EK as his subclass AND multiclass into wizard. Then he'd get a third of his total fighter levels added to increase his MC spell slots. Whuuuu?!?!?!
 

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Interesting. Are there any necessary abstractions?
It's a matter of degrees, but eventually you need to abstract something in order to keep the game playable. For example, even if you know that you swung your sword twice and that one of the swings caused meaningful injury, that doesn't tell us anything about the location of the wound, and very little about the severity of the wound. Hit Points are still somewhat abstract if we say that all damage has a physical component - the proportional HP method - even if it's less abstract than saying that they are some unknown/unobservable combination of physical and non-physical components. If we tried to add a hit-location system, to make it less abstract, then that adds complexity and bookkeeping and it would still be somewhat abstract.

Since the point of a role-playing game is to play a role, we need enough detail that we can make the same decisions our character would, and for the same reasons; if the player and the character are operating on different information, then that can cause dissociation as the player tries to figure out what the character actually knows, so they can try to make decisions from that perspective. If characters don't know that there's an easily achievable plateau of fighting skill, which is the in-game reality reflected by five levels in a fighting class, then we're left questioning what the characters do know. Are they capable of observing that the efficacy of a fighter doubles at a certain point of skill? And if not, then why not?
 

Dude, I'm an optimizer. No need to act like I unfavorably view munchkins, I'm probably more of one than most. But that doesn't alleviate the point:

Care to show me that Fighter 4/ Wizard 1? The point is that there isn't 1 because it sucks and thus multiclassing isn't something that happens organically with play but instead a choice that happens and isn't directly informed by anything happening in the game. Sure sometimes someone will multiclass according to something happening in the game if the mechanics fit and it's a good level to do so, but no one does it "organically" as was stated earlier. If they did it wouldn't be such a challenge to find that Fighter 4/ Wizard 1.

Well, you picked a bad combination. I'm all for organic multiclassing, I have done it in the past and will do so in the future -probably, if I get to play enough for that to happen again-. Yet I will never play that specific combo because wizard. I'd die rather than playing one. Now I can imagine myself going sorcerer right after four levels of fighter because I'm impatient. I want to shift lanes as soon as it becomes the natural course of action: I want to take those paladin levels as soon as I see my friend the paladin sacrifice for us, I want to start healing as soon as my scoundrel has a change of heart and finds religion, I want those rages as soon as something traumatic enough happens. The only thing stopping me from doing it more often is peer pressure to contribute to combat no matter what.

I have yet to see a concept where multiclassing is necessary. Not to powergame a concept that is different. In fact I have yet to see a concept that can't be done with Fighter, Mage, Thief, and Cleric.

But is isn't just to have a concept, you play a living character, not a platonic ideal concept. I started a game -it was a 3.5 one- with a conniving tricksting mischievous sorcerer with poor judgement and a penchant for getting into fights, later on I ended up multiclassing into paladin because that was what felt natural given the circumstances in play. And remember, this was in 3.5 where you needed wisdom to be a good paladin -and I had it in the negatives-
 


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