Class Compendium Official Announcement

[Remathilis]

Name a single change 4E has had, amongst all the errata, all the releases, all of Essentials, that could alter a character in similar fashion.

My "build anything I can think of" Artificer with Enchant Item ritual just got a lot more limited...

 

[MrMyth]

My "build anything I can think of" Artificer with Enchant Item ritual just got a lot more limited...

Well... yeah, I can't deny that. On the other hand - while the power of the character is toned down (by having more limited options), the core of the character remains there - you haven't lost the ability to actually craft magic items.

Yes, it is more limited... but there were limits before, too. It wasn't "you can craft anything you can think of", it was "you can craft anything you can think of that has been published in a rulebook", and now is, "you can craft anything you can think of that is a common item."

It definitely is a limitation on PCs. On the other hand, one that still allows them access to all the things they could genuinely need to craft. One that does allow for a DM to allow for access to crafting uncommon items via quests to find the right ingredients or components.

I think you definitely have found something that will be impacted by the change. But even then... as you presently are, you don't have to change one single line on the character sheet. As opposed to entire builds that did have to rebuild from the ground up - or had core character abilities, not just limited, but removed entirely.

Like I said, I'm not denying that there has been a change to the game. Just that it is on anywhere near the same scale or had the same impact as the changes that occured with 3.5.

 

[Gradine]

It's telling that the most convincing arguments on the "Essentials = 4.5" side reference rules updates that happened long before Essentials was a twinkle in anyone's eye (skill challenges, stealth, hit/damage math changes). It's obvious that the most significant and substantial changes to the 4.0 "core" occurred long before HotFL hit the shelves.

Meanwhile, most of the changes in Essentials are superficial at best. They'd have to be, otherwise there's no compatibility. The new class builds are simply that... builds. That's nothing new. Nothing's changed, certainly not in the sense of the above-mentioned changes. The most substantial changes are to the feat system (essentially canning a few prereqs) and to the magic item system (replacing "I bought this Frost Warhammer, it's perfect for me!" with "I found this Frost Warhammer, it's perfect for me!"). Again, really superficial changes, especially considering how substantially a few other systems have been errata'd.

In fact, let's rank all of these changes from most substantial to least substantial, and compare them to their respective "general" fan consensus:

Monster Manual 3 Math: - "Best Monster Manual ever, bar none!"
DMG2 Skill Challenges: - "Well, I guess it's better than it was before..."
Stealth Changes: - "Ohhhhhhhhhh. That makes sense."
Essentials: - "4.5! Ruined forever!"

Okay, maybe the feat changes are a bit more substantial than the stealth update. But not by much.

Either we hit 4.5 with the Monster Manual 3 or we haven't seen it yet. Essentials makes a nice, easy straw target but it's got even less substance than arguments of this nature have had in the past.

 

[Erdrick Dragin]

Feats were changed, a lot of the powers were changed. Sure, incorporated as errata over time, but there's so much errata scattered in all of 4E's material, they have to reprint them all.

I believe the races changed. They all get another +2 bonus to some other ability, for one. Why? That clearly makes Essentials Races better to play with than Core. Now all the 4E Races need to be covered with the same benefit.

The powers have changed significantly. Now ALL Wizard encounters have Miss effects? What about the Wizard powers outside Essentials and Core? Essentials Wizards sound like they have it better. And why is it only Wizards get this benefit? And what's this about no Daily powers?

Didn't something with Implements get changed?

Magic Items are now categorized...like Magic the Gathering cards...awesome...just one step closer to D&D being another WotC CCG and MMO...first the power cards now this.

What has me really stumped is...why are they continuing to support Essentials after these "Big 10" products? Is it really necessary to support TWO separate lines? Also seems like they're converting 4E material to Essentials. That Assassin Essentials is a prime example.

Oh I wish 5E would come already...

 

[AngryMojo]

Feats were changed, a lot of the powers were changed. Sure, incorporated as errata over time, but there's so much errata scattered in all of 4E's material, they have to reprint them all.

All the errata is available for free online, and the character builder makes incorporating errata a snap.

I believe the races changed. They all get another +2 bonus to some other ability, for one. Why? That clearly makes Essentials Races better to play with than Core. Now all the 4E Races need to be covered with the same benefit.

The races don't get an additional bonus, they get a choice of two abilities to add one of the bonuses to. For instance, dwarves now recieve a bonus to Con, and a bonus to either Strength or Wisdom, but not both. This puts them in line with the races from PHB3. No more power is given, just a little bit of versatility.

The powers have changed significantly. Now ALL Wizard encounters have Miss effects? What about the Wizard powers outside Essentials and Core? Essentials Wizards sound like they have it better. And why is it only Wizards get this benefit? And what's this about no Daily powers?

Some wizard powers have been changed. As it was stated before, only about 10% of the powers in the PHB have seen changes, and many of them were just rewordings. As for the daily power thing, there are a few builds of a few classes that don't receive daily powers. This in no way affects existing characters.

Didn't something with Implements get changed?

Now, if you're proficient with an implement, you can use that implement with all your implement powers. So it only effects multiclass characters, and not all of them.

Magic Items are now categorized...like Magic the Gathering cards...awesome...just one step closer to D&D being another WotC CCG and MMO...first the power cards now this.

I really don't know what to say about this.

What has me really stumped is...why are they continuing to support Essentials after these "Big 10" products? Is it really necessary to support TWO separate lines? Also seems like they're converting 4E material to Essentials. That Assassin Essentials is a prime example.

Oh I wish 5E would come already...

I'd recommend you do a little more research, you seem to be mistaken about much of what Essentials is. I promise you, as will many others on this board that the sky is not falling.

 

[Zaran]

I don't understand what you are guys are arguing about. We asked for updated hardcopies, we asked for the ability to use some of the features from Essentials. They are giving us both in this new compendium.

I agree that right now a eCharacter is not interchangeable with a cCharacter but according to the official announcement they are changing that.

What exactly are you guys angry about? That this is Essentials # 11? It's designed to move the newbies into the core rules. Or to give us core guys some of things we like about Essentials AND have more than 3 powers.

Let's go back to yelling about how DDI is going down the crapper or how 3.5 is better than 4e. Or better yet, just give it a break and play the game how you like and only buy a book that looks interesting to you. If this was an MMO I could see why you are arguing so much, since you can't play an MMO offline with your own rules. But it's not.

Yeah, maybe essentials is the dumbest idea since new Coke. But I see alot of people who like what they see. So they are selling the product to at least a portion of us.

What I would like to know is if Essentials is being sold to more than 1/6 of the gamers out there. Because if it's around a 1/6 then I want to see more products targetting the GM.

 

[Henry]

All the errata is available for free online, and the character builder makes incorporating errata a snap.

I really wouldn't use the character builder right now as a GOOD example -- it's a bit of a sore point. Two of their three biggest releases for the whole year (Dark Sun and Heroes of the Fallen Lands) STILL aren't in there, and no immediate sign of when they'll ever be in there.

 

[Zaran]

You know what I would really like to see in this product? A way to eliminate dual primary attributes. Of course the only class in this product that qualifies is the Cleric that is half Str and half Wisdom based powers. Of course, I don't like that the eCleric is Strength based so my solution would be to make every Cleric Power Strength OR Wisdom.

I find it very annoying when I find a cool melee capable MP2 power for my TW ranger and it is based on Dex because they decided to make every new ranger power Dex in that book Dex based. They really need to eliminate that sort of limitation from a class.

 

[Klaus]

You know what I would really like to see in this product? A way to eliminate dual primary attributes. Of course the only class in this product that qualifies is the Cleric that is half Str and half Wisdom based powers. Of course, I don't like that the eCleric is Strength based so my solution would be to make every Cleric Power Strength OR Wisdom.

I find it very annoying when I find a cool melee capable MP2 power for my TW ranger and it is based on Dex because they decided to make every new ranger power Dex in that book Dex based. They really need to eliminate that sort of limitation from a class.

Er... the Essentials cleric is Wisdom-based.

 

[FabioMilitoPagliara]

You missed my other point. The fact that they're repeating 3.0/3.5 all over again.

I don't think so
in 3.5 they said this is the new ranger, the old is not more usable
in Essential they say this is a new sub-class/build of the ranger, the old one can go hand in hand with this new one

You're going to have Core-only 4E players, Essentials only 4E players, or both. 4E is doing real bad right now, considering they actually TIED with Pathfinder on their sales. For the biggest RPG in the world to get shown up by, in a sense, a "rookie" is pretty indicative of what's happening to their fan base --- They're really, really mad.

well they tied in the game shop with interview we don't have real data
and pathfinder is actually 3.5 so has a pretty solid base by itself

This Essentials line is making it much worse. From gaming shops and the gamers I talk to in my region, even the pro-4E people, are either shaking their heads and going,"I told you a 4.5e was coming, they're just more clever about it this time. But it's still screwed up."

sorry for them they are missing a lot of new options

If this was about errata, then re-release errata books, or better yet, just the Rules Compendium. No, it's not just about errata. It's about "cleaning" everything up, repackaging, re-selling. Adding and altering many aspects of the game that makes it different enough from the Core where you might as well just come out and say it instead of insulting the customers by covering it up.

adding new classes don't change the game, never have, never will

And they've caught themselves in a lie. 4E's design, as stated dozens of times before, was meant to be "pick up and play", easier for newcomers to join in, easier for old gamers to come back to gaming with D&D again after two decades, and so on. So what this Essentials line is telling me is that they've lied to me originally about the intent of the design, and now they're going to make and support D&D 4E for both Twiddle-Dee and Twiddle-Dumb?

or it's telling that they have a different way to present the game, a way that is made of box and other things that can be sold primarly in shops instead that just by dowloading an update

and the real point is to have this 10 products always in the shop so that if you want to start playing D&D in october 2011 you will just get the redbox and try it out 20$, instead of buying 3 big books, dices, an adventure and a lot of other things

Also, they're going to continue offering support for both Core and Essentials lines? Two lines!? Is that necessary? So now we have 2 versions of the same game being supported? I can hear the ravings now. Why didn't they just continue to support both 3.5e AND 4E? In fact, why haven't they continued supporting all the editions?

for various reason
1) ESSENTIAL and CORE are both 4th edition so they are just selling in two differen formats
2) there are many reason to not support all editions at once (copyright just to say one)
3) I think they wantend also to separate OGL from D&D

A smart business decision would be to do what World of Warcraft does, since they modeled 4E on them anyway --- let the ones that don't have the expansion still be able to play your game. I don't have Wrath of the Lich King, but I can still play WoW and get all the updates. I'm not locked out. WotC should've done 1 or 2 large books a year, with 1e/2e/3e support. 3e versions of 4e monsters, 2e kits of 4e paragon paths, 1e versions of 4e classes, etc. That would've been the best move for them financially. They'll be raking in cash from all the old edition players who will immediately buy that book (and, heck, once or twice a year? It'll sell out so quickly) and with continued support of 4E, still rake in the cash from that!

oh yeah they must be really stupid....
or maybe who still play 1st edition has all the books he needs....

You'd have to be a WotC zealot to not be able to admit that WotC was just fine at 3.5e and, if anything, should've gone the Pathfinder route of fixing 3rd Edition up.

or maybe you must just have a different point of view than yours
they could not have done the pathfinder route
1) as said to separate D&D from OGL
2) to call for massive beta testing would have cut at least 1 year off 3.5
3) it would have aimed to people already buying 3.5 who was dwindling steadly...

Any sensible person would have to admit, yes, WotC is screwing up badly, yet again, and I don't think they should have the privilege of owning the brand and are much better off selling it to someone that cares, knows what they're doing, and won't screw people over (Paizo would've been awesome).

maybe I am not sensible, but to compare D&D and Pathfinder you should just pile up the number of manuals of both the total sale figure of the 2 brands and the number of subscribers to D&D Insider

I am calling it like I see it. I really don't understand why anyone would spin it any other way in their defense.

your problem

They don't have much of a defense other than they have a "revolving door" employee circle making all these changes and decisions. Another set of layoffs and resignations (hm, I wonder why so many are quitting?) will come in just another 6 months or so, and we'll have another round of unnecessary changes from the new blood.

I never thought I'd say this but...I really miss TSR.

maybe TSR before 1985.... but after that it was a big mess