Class concepts that you just can't work out neatly in DnD

Nitches are nice I guess but I like flexible better.

IMO if a person needs their spotlight protected and mandated by the rules to have fun they need to grow up a little.

The game is fun to me regardless of who is the most uberest of all the classes. I could care less of one character is also as good as mine at spell casting - it just means we will be a better party when we lay down spells.

Maturity is a blessing, again if having someone's character be better than your character at what you had hoped for, is making you irritated or mad enough to not enjoy socializing and playing a game with friends then - get a life.

I think niche envy and ability envy left my table middle school.


I just got the BY THE NUMBERS SUPPLEMENT AND LOVE IT!!!

This supplement is for me and mine - I too dislike the class based system.
 
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It's ok.. Some people just aren't ready to handle a game system in which abilities and such are bundled in a package, and every single possible concept can't be covered exactly as you like, and might have to change it somewhat, or not be quite as good at something as you'd like. If they keep playing though, they'll get there.
 




Barak said:
Some people just aren't ready to handle a game system in which abilities and such are bundled in a package, and every single possible concept can't be covered exactly as you like, and might have to change it somewhat, or not be quite as good at something as you'd like.

Luckily, D&D isn't the only game out there. Many times it is easier to find a game that matches what one likes instead of trying to force on.
 

Honestly, did Pride and Prejudice ever make anyone argue about the stats of a Jane Austin character?

*cough* Well, I couldn't pass that up, because yes, I have argued the stats of a Jane Austen character with friends. Why? Boredom, but still, it has happened.

Now, to get into the actual discussion at hand.

I think that as it stands now, the character classes are lenient enough that, with some creative thinking, classes can be built how the user chooses. For example, in the current game I'm running, we've got a Half-Orc Fighter, a Human Barbarian, a Half-Orc Warlock, and two Elven Clerics.

One might say, when looking at the party, "Well, that's a little strange. Two melee classes, two healers, and <insert one's POV on Warlock here>." But they work rather well. The Fighter is a fighter, and hits stuff very hard with his Greatsword + 3. The Barbarian went more for the 'wild man in the woods' type, and plans to multiclass to ranger for more effect. He can hold his own in combat, but can't keep up with the fighter, as he didn't design his character that way. The Warlock...I don't even know. Refuses to use Eldritch Blast, and instead uses all the spell-like abilities to fill in a bunch of gaps that the party doesn't quite have. Also wields a Greatsword to rather powerful effect. The Elven Clerics are twins, with one going down the healing path, making certain that everyone stays alive. The other, is most definitely evil, and puts out more damage than the other characters. (Nevermind the fact that the good cleric has to constantly make excuses for the evil acts of his sibling, which can get humorous.)

Aside from the 'lock, all the characters use the PHB for 3.5, and have created a fairly diverse party, despite the fact of many overlapping roles.

Now, I'm not saying that I wouldn't want a book like Buy The Numbers handy, in case a player wanted to do some flipping around of feats, skills, etc. But I don't believe that Core D&D is broken, so I've no need to fix it. While freedom is nice, it needs to be balanced with a bit of restriction as well. Despite what a book says, the DM is still the lord and master of his campaign, and reserves the right to say "no" to something s/he doesn't agree with.

Also, as a small addition to an argument that has come and gone, the 'useless' classes. If someone wants to play an extremely ineffectual character, I nor the rest of the party will complain. However, we do ask for what they 'can' do, so we know what to expect from them. We've had Adepts, Experts, mentally challenged Wizards, physically handicapped Fighters, etc. The character usually lasts a session or two, (unless for some reason they're particularly effective, upon which I'll elaborate below,) and is usually killed, or 'retired' by the Player in favor of a more effective character.

Now, the 'useless' character that became wondrous: A character of mine, named Samuel. Sammy, as he was often called, was a Sorcerer. A sorcerer who dedicated his magic to the art of performance, and thus took no offensive or defensive spells, but was mainly an illusionist. Somehow, my goofy, ridiculous spells came in handy more than they should have, and Samuel was somehow a viable member of a team. With spells such as Ghost Sounds, Fear, Flare, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Gust of Wind, etc, going into the more powerful 'useless' spells like Mirage Arcana and Persistent Image, and a LOT of quick thinking, I saved the party from death many a time. (I constantly cast Permanent - Dancing Lights on one of the main antagonists whenever we came across him. He was a Rogue/Shadow Dancer/Assassin that was effective at killing while hidden, but with the Lights, we knew where he was all the time. Pretty nifty.) I used a lot of my XP on crafting items and using Permanency (I like that spell), but it was worth it.

So it all kind of depends on the person playing a character, for all sides. Now, I'll admit there are characters who are useless in certain campaigns, but someone who knows what they're doing can quickly turn a 'useless' character into a possibly viable one. Granted, with mine I got lucky, but I found the more I played, the better I was. Just like everything in life, it's all relative.
 
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Driddle said:
OK. To review a few of the finer points here, let's start with A.O.'s post:



At this point he starts microparsing previous messages and fails to actually provide a valid recap in the "point/counterpoint" structure. Just a thinly veiled ad hominem attack on the stuff he doesn't agree with.

Very FOX Newsish. Quite trendy.

Thank you! I try.

Well, I guess I did drift quite a bit from my original intention. Oh hell, I made a left-hand turn and never looked back. But, let me try to make it up to you... Here comes the counterpoints:

3.x D&D is not perfect. It's a game I enjoy, but frequently, I find myself looking to third party sources for classes which cover concepts not already addressed by the game system. For example, The leveling system can be a touch confining at times... even though like skills are grouped, and there's allways the ability to take cross-class skills, it's aggrivating that many of the class-specific special abilities are completely exclusive. For example, you can't get a pure spellcaster with a favored enemy bonus, and the only class to get flurry of blows is the monk (as far as i know, i'd really like to see more done with that monk class feature). Likewise, you don't see stealth-based class with wild shape (that would be an entertaining one. Imagine a NPC on guard duity: "hey what's that sound? oh, it's just a dog. Good pupp-aiee! It bit me in a sneaky manner! Oh the initial natural attack was degrading, but the extra d6's really rub it in...")

Now, i understand there's not a lot of archtypes for these oddball hero types to draw from (damn it, now I'm planning a rogue / druid character as an NPC...) but many ineffective sounding concept could prove valid, and interesting in standard play.

So, where do we stand with this? There are TONS of rules systems with "point buy" game mechanics which are better suited to taking a variety of abilities and duct-taping them together. Gurps, and several other point-buy systems have already been mentioned, along with "buy the numbers" which sounds like a good read. But i don't think that some players want to learn a new game system just to play their perfect concept character. As a result, they simply won't be satisfied until WotC releases an updated version of the player's option from 2nd edition.

Now, here's the problem: I've never seen the Player's Option book. Let alone heard of it before this year. This is coming from a guy who'se only been playing for about 12 years, so i'm hardly an authority on the canonical history of D&D. But I'd love to see some more information on the players option guide. It's mentioned in passing on several sites (many of them forums expressing the same grief expressed here) but it's never really explained. Perhaps someone here can do that? Explain how class special abilities could be purchased on a level-to-level system in a fast and effective manner which would stay balanced within the confines of D&D's leveling system.

(wildshape + sneak attack... Bad kitty!)
 

The Player's Options books were a few books, the most notable and the one really discussed here being Skills and Powers, released near the end of 2nd edition AD&D.

In Skills and Powers, each class got a certain number of points (it varied per class), and could choose on a menu of class abilities. Each class could be rebuilt with the exact number of point they got (for example, you could remake the cleric for the exact number of points you got for being a cleric). Obviously, each class had more abilities listed than they usually got, therefore you could switch out stuff, or whatever. Each school (or sphere, for clerics and druids) of magic was worth a certain number of points,a nd could/had to be bought separately.

Of course, one could decide to play a cleric, buy all the fighter's abilities, and be left with points to buy more stuff. It just wasn't balanced at all, and required DM's approval to really do anything, since abuse was easy, and not really avoided, as that wasn't the point of the system anyway. So a decent idea, but not really that good.
 

Driddle said:
Missed point of the thread: Shouldn't have to ask for special consideration and GM-approved tweaks. It's doable.
Sure you should. If you agreed to play a class-based game you can't very well complain that there are classes, and they don't cover everything you might be able to think up. There's a lot of good stuff about other game structures. If you want GURPS, play that. If you want Wushu, play that. I guarrantee that your Wushu character will be exactly what you want them to be.

There are some archetypes not well accomodated by the D&D system. Some of those are problems that need to be fixed through house rules, PrCs and the like. Compiling a list of them is probably a good idea.

But the idea that every aspect of a PC is under the player's control is not a given. The GM might reasonably set parameters when they pitch the game. A game need not accomodate every potential character idea--there are always other games to play.

You seem to be unhappy that D&D doesn't do everything you'd like. That's totally valid. I recommend you look for a different game that suits your tastes, rather than pretending that this makes D&D in some way inferior. Diff'rent strokes and all that, right? Also, the line about D&D players being unable to handle point buy games comes across as insulting. You'd probably get a better reception if you dropped that sort of rhetoric.

-C.
 

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