Class concepts that you just can't work out neatly in DnD

[Rystil Arden]

The Player's Options books were a few books, the most notable and the one really discussed here being Skills and Powers, released near the end of 2nd edition AD&D.

In Skills and Powers, each class got a certain number of points (it varied per class), and could choose on a menu of class abilities. Each class could be rebuilt with the exact number of point they got (for example, you could remake the cleric for the exact number of points you got for being a cleric). Obviously, each class had more abilities listed than they usually got, therefore you could switch out stuff, or whatever. Each school (or sphere, for clerics and druids) of magic was worth a certain number of points,a nd could/had to be bought separately.

Of course, one could decide to play a cleric, buy all the fighter's abilities, and be left with points to buy more stuff. It just wasn't balanced at all, and required DM's approval to really do anything, since abuse was easy, and not really avoided, as that wasn't the point of the system anyway. So a decent idea, but not really that good.

If I remember correctly, I used that system to build a cleric who had all the important Fighter abilities, all the important Rogue abilities, the Evocation School of Wizard Magic and the Healing Sphere of Cleric Magic. And it wasn't particularly hard either--I was something like 11 when this book came out.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Reckon the DnD class system is fantastic for a certain type of game: If you want a 'dungeon crawl', it's easy to do - way more so than any other system I can think of. Clearly defined needs for a party and lots of straightforward archetypes to fill all the niches. I'd go as far as saying it's a great introduction to RPGs. Certainly the sort of thing that got me playing.

Before anyone pounces, I'm NOT saying you can't do an awful lot more with the system - particularly with some splat books, house rules and/or imagination. But it does make that sort of game much easier to get right into?

I like flexible point buy systems a lot - although my early experiences of them were much like Rystil Arden above - a group of horrendously overpowered PCs. As times gone by, we figured on making them with the GM, just to make sure everyones ideas of "balanced for play" are the same. Playing an excellent DC heroes campaign at the moment - we gave superhero concepts to the GM and he went off and twisted the mechanics round - a great way to make sure everyone fits together well.

Think adding a point buy class system would be fine for DnD - but I'd rather they did it in a separate splat book. Avoid 'muddying the waters' for some newer gamers?

As an example, point buy classes would likely ruin the kind of game my 12 y/o cousin and his mates have been playing. Unless someone came up with a totally balanced point buy, which I can't see happening.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Reckon the DnD class system is fantastic for a certain type of game: If you want a 'dungeon crawl', it's easy to do - way more so than any other system I can think of. Clearly defined needs for a party and lots of straightforward archetypes to fill all the niches. I'd go as far as saying it's a great introduction to RPGs. Certainly the sort of thing that got me playing.

Before anyone pounces, I'm NOT saying you can't do an awful lot more with the system - particularly with some splat books, house rules and/or imagination. But it does make that sort of game much easier to get right into?

I like flexible point buy systems a lot - although my early experiences of them were much like Rystil Arden above - a group of horrendously overpowered PCs. As times gone by, we figured on making them with the GM, just to make sure everyones ideas of "balanced for play" are the same. Playing an excellent DC heroes campaign at the moment - we gave superhero concepts to the GM and he went off and twisted the mechanics round - a great way to make sure everyone fits together well.

Think adding a point buy class system would be fine for DnD - but I'd rather they did it in a separate splat book. Avoid 'muddying the waters' for some newer gamers?

As an example, point buy classes would likely ruin the kind of game my 12 y/o cousin and his mates have been playing. Unless someone came up with a totally balanced point buy, which I can't see happening.

Ah--I actually never had any experiences playing with said cleric above. Even at age 11, I knew this was not a fair build and so our group worked out Skills and Powers in our own way (which included that all builds required GM approval, particularly with clerics).

 

[DarkKestral]

Honestly, I'm in favor of the idea, because it allows me, as THE GM, to design classes that fit well within settings I design. Class systems are great, because once made, a class serves as a kind of basic 'package' for Cool Stuffs the PCs/NPCs can do. That's handy, because that means I can stat monsters/NPCs more quickly.

However, a 'by the numbers' approach is good when designing campaigns and PC classes for them. I don't have to guess what percentage of a character's power is taken up by say, the monk unarmed damage progression, good saves, bonus feats, and suchlike. It's not something I would give to the characters, often, but I would like it for GM use, at least. Knowing the basic underpinning of class designs can tell me a lot about where balance is LIKELY to lay. Are players going to try to break the system? sure. But as a GM, especially one interested in maintaining relative balance with or better balance than the current ruleset, I am not likely to make 'broken' PCs intentionally, except as thought experiments, and those 'broken' PCs are generally designed to test rules cases which might come up in play or in response to an argument in which both sides have some degree of support.

For example, it appears that a single feat is equal to or less than +1d6 sneak attack, according to UA. If I had a by the numbers guide for the DMG with appropriate guidelines (for every Xd6 of precision damage, usable on average Y percent of the time, use number Z for the 'price' of that special ability sorta thing) I can look at that, see that yeah, I could probably allow fighters some leeway with their feats to gain some sneak attack damage.

It also means I can have the flexibility to say: "Hey guys, come up with some classes. You have W point buy for character abilities, and N 'build' points per level. I'd like something along the lines of (insert famous character from literature, TV, radio, or movies). Could you do that? I'll be testing them out for balance later."

If you do that with races, you have a very flexible system, but the core of it can still be 'classic' D&D. I need a martial campaign, and so I need a more martial rogue-equivalent with trapfinding? Building one becomes easy.

 

[Shazman]

There's no mistake. A player gets to PLAY the character of his choice.
Whether you think it's a worthless choice is a matter of (faulty) personal opinion.

The group decides what an individual plays? How incredibly ridiculous!

The group may not decide what an individual plays, but the game is a collective effort. There is an expectation that everyone's character will contribute meaningfully to the party's efforts. If Joe decides he wants to play a commoner, and the group has to spend a lot of time and resources protecting his character, or they get TPK'd because they no longer have a balanced party, it's not much fun for anyone. In D&D the needs of the many definitely outweight the needs of the few.

 

[Barak]

Also, I don't get the "oh, a point-buy class system works well if players are adult and mature and don't try to twink and are better than you haha!" approach. I mean, sure, you get people who'll make balanced characters, won't abuse the system, won't try to do so, even.

Well then, why the heck do you need a point-buy? If the players are such oh-so-more-mature people that won't twink, just let them decide what their characters can and can't do, and don't bother with points.

 

[Agent Oracle]

that's What FUDGE is for. Sorry.... having some keyboardb tro uble...

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Ah--I actually never had any experiences playing with said cleric above. Even at age 11, I knew this was not a fair build and so our group worked out Skills and Powers in our own way (which included that all builds required GM approval, particularly with clerics).

Hehe - in that case, you were a much wiser 11 year old than me.

Seem to recall I took all kinds of minor hinderances (which didn't really apply), in order to create a ridiculous mage. The others all did the same... was impressed the game made it nearly 2 hours before imploding. Although the character creation took a lot longer.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hehe - in that case, you were a much wiser 11 year old than me.

Seem to recall I took all kinds of minor hinderances (which didn't really apply), in order to create a ridiculous mage. The others all did the same... was impressed the game made it nearly 2 hours before imploding. Although the character creation took a lot longer.

Ah, yes. Things like 'can't cast spells on a harvest moon after having eaten a meal of roast dumplings'. It requires a ton of those to actually buy a Sphere or School of magic though (the main problem in the pricing is how much those darned Spheres cost--they cost so much that you have to give the priest tons of points to let her buy them all).

But yeah, age 11 Rystil created that build as an example to his PCs of why he had the final say on anything that came out of that book, as it was so ridiculous (even without all kinds of minor hindrances) that they all admitted that we could no longer take the book seriously as written

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Also, I don't get the "oh, a point-buy class system works well if players are adult and mature and don't try to twink and are better than you haha!" approach. I mean, sure, you get people who'll make balanced characters, won't abuse the system, won't try to do so, even.

Well then, why the heck do you need a point-buy? If the players are such oh-so-more-mature people that won't twink, just let them decide what their characters can and can't do, and don't bother with points.

I've tried something like that... albeit with stats instead of entire classes.

The players collectively didn't like it. They didn't know whether their version of 'about right' was the same as everyone elses. Wanted some kind of guideline to tie it all too, make sure none of them was really out of level with the others.

Guess the same sentiment would apply more to a pick your own abilities kind of system?

Does depend on the game and group I guess?


Edit: And if you find those players you were talking about, can I buy them?