D&D (2024) Class features with drawbacks

[Redwizard007]

In another thread we spent some time discussing the merits and flaws of the Barbarian's Frenzy ability from 5e. I don't want to rehash that whole conversation, but it did strike me as odd that the Frenzy feature has a significant benefit, and a scaling penalty depending on number of times it is used. More specifically, that it appears to be the ONLY instance where the 5e designers did this. With that in mind, how would the community feel about more class features using this type of model in future editions?

 

[Galendril]

I think the developers have been pretty clear why they didn’t include drawbacks in character classes.

 

[Prakriti]

Considering how much wailing and gnashing of teeth there was over the ability score penalties in Volo's Guide to Monsters, I don't think today's gamers react to downsides very well (I'm pretty sure I've seen the goblin and kobold in Volo's Guide described as "literally unplayable" because they have ability score penalties).

Best to avoid penalties in future designs.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

The latest Unearthed Arcana has a major drawback in the capstone ability of the Scribe wizard, where you come back to life after you die at the price of not being able to cast selected spells again.

WotC generally doesn't create abilities like this.

 

[J-H]

And how many people use the Barbarian's Frenzy ability?
Not many I suspect.
It's even worse because a couple of the popular Barbarian feats (PAM & GWM) also give an attack with a bonus action frequently.

Not sure what I'd houserule it to be...maybe "You can attack as a bonus action, and if you have two bonus-action attacks somehow, you can make both."

 

[Guest 6801328]

And how many people use the Barbarian's Frenzy ability?
Not many I suspect.
It's even worse because a couple of the popular Barbarian feats (PAM & GWM) also give an attack with a bonus action frequently.

Not sure what I'd houserule it to be...maybe "You can attack as a bonus action, and if you have two bonus-action attacks somehow, you can make both."

True, but lots of class abilities conflict with feats, whether reactions or bonus actions. The lesson here is that you can't have everything. (And GWM is still plenty effective with Frenzy, just maybe less so against waves of CR 1/4 mooks.)

 

[neogod22]

And how many people use the Barbarian's Frenzy ability?
Not many I suspect.
It's even worse because a couple of the popular Barbarian feats (PAM & GWM) also give an attack with a bonus action frequently.

Not sure what I'd houserule it to be...maybe "You can attack as a bonus action, and if you have two bonus-action attacks somehow, you can make both."

My 1st barbarian was a berserker. I actually didn't use it much, mainly because I was playing AL, and most fights didn't last long enough for me to even waste a rage over. But when I dod rage, I would use frenzy at least 1/day.

 

[neogod22]

And how many people use the Barbarian's Frenzy ability?
Not many I suspect.
It's even worse because a couple of the popular Barbarian feats (PAM & GWM) also give an attack with a bonus action frequently.

Not sure what I'd houserule it to be...maybe "You can attack as a bonus action, and if you have two bonus-action attacks somehow, you can make both."

The way to fix it is, Frenzy gives you an extra attack per round, not as a bonus action. This way, it works with PAM and GWM.

 

[Redwizard007]

The way to fix it is, Frenzy gives you an extra attack per round, not as a bonus action. This way, it works with PAM and GWM.

Getting side tracked here. Frenzy isn't the actual discussion.

Try this out, in MTG black decks often use sacrificing life or creatures to power their best tricks. Thats the way i see Frenzy. How do people feel about say, Sorcerers taking Con damage to power up a spell, or Fighters taking a penalty to defense for a large boost to attacks or damage (like Reckless Attack. Huh, i guess its a theme with barbarians. )

 

[cbwjm]

I'm not against drawbacks, I quite like an ability like the evoker's overchannel. It lets you use the ability once for free, but further uses have a drawback (necrotic damage). I know it isn't the actual discussion, but I think this is how I'd prefer Frenzy to work.

In regard to race, I'm actually fine with stat penalties. I'd be fine if gnomes and halflings and other small races had a strength penalty for instance, admittedly this would possibly have prevented one of my players making a strength based barbarian which does have some great imagery.